Fighting

[socallax]

In the third quarter a player from team A had a fast break off of a ground ball situation. The player quickly found himself right in front of the goal with two team B defenders sliding on him. When the two defenders from team B failed to stop the offensive player team B's goalie came out of the cage to make a hit. By the time the goalie made his hit the offensive player had dropped the ball. I'm guessing that the offensive player from team A felt as though the hit was late or high because he then swung his stick at the goalie and then he and the goalie blatantly exchanged punches. Other players then joined in wrestling each other till the fight was broken up.

I was expecting that both the player from team A and the goalie from team B would be ejected for throwing punches and starting the fight. However neither player served penalty time or were ejected. Another player from team A that was involved in the wrestling part of the fight served a penalty, but that was it.

I seem to remember from my time playing and coaching in the WCLL that throwing a punch was an immediate ejection and a one game suspension.

Can someone please explain this situation?

[scoot88]

That's too bad. Every incident like this, either with players or fans out of control, puts a mark on the WCLL or lax in general. Hopefully it's the last one.

I'm surprised by the refs non-action as well. I remember lots of games where players were ejected and suspended for the following game. It would be interesting to see exactly what happened... anybody film that game?

[LaxRef]

Deliberately striking another person is supposed to be an expulsion for fighting (the other person doesn't need to fight back for it to be a fighting ejection, and the strike doesn't need to be with a fist: you could expel someone for a deliberate slash, especially during a dead ball).

I can't comment on your game situation because I didn't see it, but officials do need to take fighting seriously.

[echo 600]

I was at this game and it went down exactly as socallax said. There was really no explanation for it. It was a three to four man scrum with some definite punches thrown, and the refs only sent one man to the box. It was pretty silly.

[Buc_em_up]

As I understand it, if a player is attacking a player on the other team, only players from the attacker's team can pull them off correct? What if no one is making any moves to pull off the attacker?

I was once involved in a situation where i got a 3 min non-releasable penalty for pulling someone who was pummeling my team mate off of him. I did not throw any punches even pin the guy down. I just ulled him off and put myself between the two people to give my teammate time to get up and get away.

I understand that what I did could be considered retaliation, but it was obvious I was just helping my team mate. The refs told me that I got the penalty because you arent allowed to touch anyone from the other team in a fight, only people on the respective teams can pull them off but no one from his team was making an effort to. Is this really a good rule? to make someone watch as his team mate gets repeatedly punched. (grated in this case his helmet was still on so no harm done but what if it wasnt?)

[LaxRef]

As I understand it, if a player is attacking a player on the other team, only players from the attacker's team can pull them off correct? What if no one is making any moves to pull off the attacker?

I was once involved in a situation where i got a 3 min non-releasable penalty for pulling someone who was pummeling my team mate off of him. I did not throw any punches even pin the guy down. I just ulled him off and put myself between the two people to give my teammate time to get up and get away.

I understand that what I did could be considered retaliation, but it was obvious I was just helping my team mate. The refs told me that I got the penalty because you arent allowed to touch anyone from the other team in a fight, only people on the respective teams can pull them off but no one from his team was making an effort to. Is this really a good rule? to make someone watch as his team mate gets repeatedly punched. (grated in this case his helmet was still on so no harm done but what if it wasnt?)

There is no explicit rule stating that you can only touch your teammate, but the wisest course of action is to let the officials handle it. You may just be grabbing the guy to get him off your teammate, but in doing so you may be pinning his arms so your teammate gets free shots, or the guy may spin around and start punching you, drawing you into the fight.

The best thing that can happen is for everyone not involved in the fight to go to their bench or stay on their bench and let the officials sort out the combatants. The more people around, the greater the potential for a fight to turn into a brawl.

[DwinsChamps]

Is there a national standard to which refs must adhere? I've been ejected for pulling my own teammate out of a fight...that ref basically told me the two closest people on each team would be punished, an interesting concept IMO.

[Sonny]

Is there a national standard to which refs must adhere?

The NCAA rulebook.

[horn17]

Agreed....

You should never touch the situation at all...

We all get caught up in the moment, and protecting our friends, players etc.......but as a coach as well - dont even try to help out the officials....

I watched a full bench clearing brawl a couple years ago...both benches emptied, both HC's were out on the field trying to seperate all players as 2 officals stood at the X not wanting to get involved (im not trying to blame them, or associate a poor job - but these were two first or second year refs - and they were out of their league on this one - I think one of them even quit after this situation).....

After both HC's got all prospective players to the bench, the coaches were ejected, and the refs left the field, and called the game, which makes sense as both "teams" should have been ejected - or at least whomever left the bench. Now this was my concern, if the officals let it proceed, what jurisdiction as coaches do we have to assist them if they choose to do nothing about it? I mean, you can film it, and show it someone in charge, but nothing ever came of those "critical meetings" - other than both HC's were suspended for 2 games.

This is not intended to upset any of our fine refs in this great game - but -if they refuse to do nothing, are they liable if something serious occurs???

[horn17]

Is there a national standard to which refs must adhere? I've been ejected for pulling my own teammate out of a fight...that ref basically told me the two closest people on each team would be punished, an interesting concept IMO.

Mike,

In these situations, it is a referee discrection, even though you were trying to help....they dont know if you were intending to leg drop him or not....

Thats why no one should ever touch anyone after the whistle...you open yourself to become a target, espically in a situation like that....

Another thing I've noticed....most lax guys are wearing helmets and pads....the fights aren't going to turn into UFC...and only last like 1 minute of and really resemble a Middle School Girl Fight....

[Timbalaned]

Another thing I've noticed....most lax guys are wearing helmets and pads....the fights aren't going to turn into UFC...and only last like 1 minute of and really resemble a Middle School Girl Fight....

I don't know where you went to Middle School, but those girl fights were the best I ever saw. Extensions getting ripped out, claws coming out, girls getting tossed into poles and walls. Those fights were the craziest for sure.

[Buc_em_up]

I'm more concerned with a situation where one guy is beating the crap out of another guy, the guy getting beat up isn't fighting back due to fear of ejection, and the refs are just standing there not stopping it? Sure they will eject the guy throwing the punches when he is done, but what kind of protection is there for the person getting beat on if they can't protect themselves and no one can help them without getting ejected for fighting also. It seems to me like some kind of consensus needs to be reached about what refs need to do if only one person is throwing the punches so as to protect the other person.

Maybe MMA training for all refs? j/k of course. On the other hand, the refs don't need to be risking injury getting in the middle of every fight but they should at least allow a padded out player to break it up withough penalizing that guy too.

[horn17]

Lets give them tasers......

for the players...(not the coaches - even though some might need it more than the players)

[LaxRef]

You might think this is a simple thing, but I have been extremely frustrated trying to get an answer to the following simple question from US Lacrosse:

If two players are fighting, are the officials allowed to touch the players in an attempt to separate them?

Simple question, yes or no answer, and the insurance company won't let themselves be pinned down.

In Referee magazine, one of the leading legal experts in officiating issues has repeatedly stated that the officials have greater liability if they allow a fight to continue than if they physically break it up. I have been pushing for a simple statement like:

Officials should do whatever they can to end the fight without becoming physically involved. Blow the whistle repeatedly as close to the participants as possible and repeatedly yell, for example, "Blue 42! White 10! Stop it!" This is often enough to get them to stop, and repeating the numbers out loud will help you remember which players are to be expelled.

If this is not successful, the officials may attempt to separate the players involved if they are reasonably sure they can do so without endangering the safety of the players or the officials.

As soon as possible, send all players to their bench areas while you report the expulsions and any other penalties involved. Have the in-home for each team serve the expulsion penalties; never put two players who have just been in a fight together in the penalty area since that simply invites a second fight.

With this statement, I am trying to give the officials some flexibility: if they're afraid they're going to get creamed, they are not required to physically separate the players, but if they think they can do so safely then they have the green light. I'm still working on this, so we may get a statement eventually, but it's really slow going because of our legal system. I mean, when you can put your Winnebago on cruise control so you can go make a sandwich and then sue successfully after you crash . . .

(Kidding! I always look stuff up on Snopes.com!)

[LaxRef]

This is not intended to upset any of our fine refs in this great game - but -if they refuse to do nothing, are they liable if something serious occurs???

You can't just wash your hands of it as an official. You need to blow the whistle, get numbers, tell them to stop, call the police on your cell phone if you must, but you can't just walk away. My understanding is that the officials could be held legally liable if they simply allowed the players to fight.

Unfortunately, I think the fighting situation is getting worse. I had no fights in my first eight years of officiating. I had one in a JV game in my eighth year. In my 10th year I had three (one JV, one V, one MCLA).