Castro Gone

[Zeuslax]

We are so worried about the international backlash caused by reports from Cuba -- a country that even veiled communist Jimmy Carter said had severe basic human rights problems -- about the Guantanamo prisons that we need to bribe them?

I hear ya, I'm just giving you the facts, just the facts......Tough to say what this administrations motivations are sometimes. However, it's the perfect type of ammunition that Castro has looked for in the past and it's sitting in his lap. I'm not sure how many in the US realize how big of deal Guantanamo is on the international scene. It's like shooting fish in a barrel for the Castro's.

And the international community will supposedly take the word of a regime that has jailed political dissidents who would consider water-boarding an enjoyable day by the pool?

Are we talking about us or Cuba? I think we all know the international double standards that the whole world employees.

I would be very interested in reading the "reports" you speak of and just one of the "many" who have speculated about this.

The initial "offering" is 100% fact. How else would you explain the deafening silence coming out of Cuba on this topic? You also have to remember the timing and the immense pressure that the island was under. Cuba suffered through 2 absolutely devastating hurricanes and it's tourism industry took a big hit after 9-11. Castro’s quote after the first detainees arrived went something like this, "We will cooperate in any human way possible". Huh? I think it was 6 US senators that traveled to Cuba almost immediately after the high level Republican talks with Cuba in December of 01. All rolled into the historic agricultural bill that passed. Yes, very historic as it was the first shipments after a intense 40 year embargo. Pure politics and a typical US horse trade!

Here's another little fun fact for everyone. The US has constructed a very large facility on the Gauntanamo grounds. It was orginally built to hold the expected swell of immigrants after Castro died. However, the plans are still in place for the expected regime collaspe and the masses that will be looking to get in to Florida.

[laxfan25]

Add that to Cuba's alliance with the Soviet Union and it is clear why we should have set up an embargo.

So if the fact that Cuba has/had a cozy relationship with the Soviet Union is the issue, why don't we have an embargo with the Soviet Union?? (Outside of the fact that the Soviet Union ceases to exist!)

One really needs to get into the history of Cuba and other "banana republics" in Central and South America to understand the roots of where we've gotten to today. The story of the United Fruit Company is very much intertwined with the history of this area. Their interest in preserving their monopoly on the banana trade greatly outweighed their concern for the native population and the spread of democracy. In fact, some might say that support for corrupt dictators was more in their corporate interest. Guatemala had a democratically elected government that was overthrown in 1954 by a group of Army officers, with the assistance of the CIA (and some say at the behest of United Fruit). UFC controlled huge swaths of land in Guatemala, much of which they left uncultivated (they say as "reserve" land in case of hurricanes, others claim that it aided in maintaining their monopoly) and kept out of the hands of peasant farmers. The president of Guatemala was allegedly going to take these reserve lands and distribute them to the population, hence the need for his removal.

When Castro nationalized UFC's holdings in Cuba, he compensated them at the value that UFC was declaring for tax purposes, which might have been a bit undervalued. This was the same formula that was to have been adopted in Guatemala.

I am no fan of uncharged, indefinite detentions anywhere. However, in the name of anti-terrorism it is amazing what you can get people to go along with. Given that we have made repeated attempts on Castro's life, who can blame him for holding these people as "enemy combatants"??

It is obvious that our foreign policy towards Cuba is totally a hostage to the politics of South Florida. If we did not have the embargo in place I'm sure the invasion of American culture would have brought Cuba to a different place than years of an embargo have done.

Lastly, I notice the term "revolution" in quotes. Why is it that the only good revolution, the only one worth rhapsodizing over - is the American Revolution?? 200 years later and it is the theme for our largest car company. Do you think the Tories in England were railing against the terrorists that were wreaking havoc in "their" lands?
Perhaps the privileged class in pre-revolutionary Cuba, those with the money and connections to make their way to Florida, were just a small part of the population and that the democratic majority supported the overthrow of the dictator Batista?

Our policy vis a vis Cuba is just a historic anachronism, one that doesn't jibe when compared with our openness towards other regimes that might not have spotless records on human rights, but might have more economic value and less of a political constituency here in the U.S.

[KnoxVegas]

I am we versed on the embargo but thanks for the refresher. Like my esteemed colleague from the 'burgh pointed out so eloquently, it's about the all mighty $. Cue the Lee Greenwood and hand me my flag!

[StrykerFSU]

I was using quotation marks because I don't consider the overthrow of a government to consolidate power in the hands of one man and the institution of a forced, centralized economic system to be the moral or historical equivalent of the American Revolution. We can debate that but it is a bit off topic.

The Cuban Government is the relic of a failed economic system and its citizenry are worse off for it. The people of Cuba will benefit much more from a move towards democracy and free enterprise than from getting to watch MTv. It is the Cuban government that practices censorship of ideas so I'm not convinced that any influx of American culture would happen even if there was no embargo. In fact, the U.S. spends millions of dollars each year broadcasting into Cuba so maybe they are already getting those American values, provided they are not jailed for tuning in.

But there is hope! While Helms-Burton can't be lifted as long as a Castro is in power, there is speculation that Raul might not be named President and Fidey himself has called on younger leaders to begin taking more responsibility.

On a personal note, I'm all for lifting the embargo as it would be great for my uncle to be able to go back to the island he was forced to flee as a kid.

[Jac Coyne]

I would be very interested in reading the "reports" you speak of and just one of the "many" who have speculated about this.

The initial "offering" is 100% fact. How else would you explain the deafening silence coming out of Cuba on this topic?

Well, you might as well go ahead and drop a link on this page about this conspiracy so the rest of us can catch up on these "100% facts." Thanks in advance.

[nine]

Lastly, I notice the term "revolution" in quotes. Why is it that the only good revolution, the only one worth rhapsodizing over - is the American Revolution?? 200 years later and it is the theme for our largest car company. Do you think the Tories in England were railing against the terrorists that were wreaking havoc in "their" lands?
Perhaps the privileged class in pre-revolutionary Cuba, those with the money and connections to make their way to Florida, were just a small part of the population and that the democratic majority supported the overthrow of the dictator Batista?

just a question....are you or is anyone in your family from cuba? do you have any first-hand accounts of what exactly happened or is this all based on text books?

[laxfan25]

Lastly, I notice the term "revolution" in quotes. Why is it that the only good revolution, the only one worth rhapsodizing over - is the American Revolution?? 200 years later and it is the theme for our largest car company. Do you think the Tories in England were railing against the terrorists that were wreaking havoc in "their" lands?
Perhaps the privileged class in pre-revolutionary Cuba, those with the money and connections to make their way to Florida, were just a small part of the population and that the democratic majority supported the overthrow of the dictator Batista?

just a question....are you or is anyone in your family from cuba? do you have any first-hand accounts of what exactly happened or is this all based on text books?

No, I'm from the communist land of Connecticut. And the point is?
I have not spent any time in pre- or post-revolutionary Cuba, but I have seen The Godfather II several times. I also consider myself fairly up to date on world events, even if some of it is from book-learnin'. I grew up during the entire period of Fidel Castro's regime, and one of my earliest memories of first reading newspapers (outside of the comics) was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I still remember wondering what this word "aggression" meant.

Do you disagree that the outlook on revolutions is often colored by the side your on? That one person's terrorist is someone else's freedom fighter or Minuteman? Do you have first-hand knowledge yourself that the majority of Cubans do not look favorably on Fidel?

That's my viewpoint - what's yours?

[Jac Coyne]

Do you have first-hand knowledge yourself that the majority of Cubans do not look favorably on Fidel?

Actually, it's a fact that a majority of Cubans favor the Castros. In the latest "election" for the National Assembly of Popular Power, Fidel was re-elected with 98.4 percent of the vote while Raul was even better with 99.4 percent (eat your heart out, Barack). So Raul's ascendency is actually mandated by the people.

Of course, neither could match Saddam Hussein, who still holds the world record for popularity by taking 99.96 of electorate in his (literally) last election cycle.

[StrykerFSU]

An Editorial in today's Washington Post:

"ARULING group is a ruling group so long as it can nominate its successors," George Orwell wrote in "1984." "Who wields power is not important, provided that the hierarchical structure remains always the same." Mr. Orwell's words have eerie relevance to Fidel Castro's announcement yesterday that he is turning over the presidency of Cuba to his brother Ra¿l. Nothing could be more consistent with the ailing Mr. Castro's 49-year dictatorship than the manner in which he has (at least formally) ended it.

...The Soviet Union subsidized him until its collapse in 1991. Then, just when it appeared that the Cuban regime might crack because of its own incompetence and a U.S. trade embargo, a new ideological ally, President Hugo Chavez of oil-rich Venezuela, bailed it out. Thus, Mr. Castro retires without being held accountable for turning one of Latin America's most developed economies into a bankrupt sugar plantation. He escapes accountability, too, for killing hundreds of political opponents and imprisoning thousands more; for sending Cuban soldiers to kill and die in wars between African tyrants; and for arming and training violent Latin American guerrillas. Nor will he ever answer for the deaths of those who perished fleeing his rule by sea.

...it's important to remember that, by the measure of the most fundamental goal of U.S. policy -- that Cuba become a democracy that respects human rights -- nothing has changed with Mr. Castro's retirement. Any U.S. strategy for Cuba must be aimed at giving Cubans the leverage to demand that transformation, in spite of what Mr. Castro and his heirs might intend.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/19/AR2008021902338.html

"Communist Connecticut", ha! I have a buddy who's a dentist in a free clinic in Bridgeport and he has plenty of stories about the worker's paradise...but I digress.

Laxfan, your point on the historical representation of certain revolutionary groups is understood and well documented but I don't think it's overly relevant here. I'm sure that the Tories thought of the Colonials as terrorists but the result was the most successful economic and political system in the history of civilization. George Washington didn't install himself as President for life and then purge his government of rivals.

The Communist Revolution in Cuba has to be viewed as a historical failure and one that has resulted in the deaths of countless Cubans over the past 50 years. Castro is just Stalin in a smaller sandbox. He is/was a brutal military dictator who squashed dissent and centralized the country's wealth and power to the detriment of its citizens. U.S. policy has reflected that fact and Cuba does not offer enough economic incentive for Washington to look the other way, as we do with China. Yes, there's a double standard and yes, it's unfair and yes, it's about money. (but no, it's not W's fault).

[laxfan25]

Do you have first-hand knowledge yourself that the majority of Cubans do not look favorably on Fidel?

Actually, it's a fact that a majority of Cubans favor the Castros. In the latest "election" for the National Assembly of Popular Power, Fidel was re-elected with 98.4 percent of the vote while Raul was even better with 99.4 percent (eat your heart out, Barack). So Raul's ascendency is actually mandated by the people.

Of course, neither could match Saddam Hussein, who still holds the world record for popularity by taking 99.96 of electorate in his (literally) last election cycle.

Well there you have it - they LOVE him!!
I also wouldn't want to put to a vote whether the Iraqis would prefer to go back to life under the dictatorship of Saddam versus the conditions that they have now - you might end up with similar results.

I guess we could go back and wonder about the 2000 election closer to home, where the "winner" ended up with a half-million fewer votes in the popular tally and a five-vote edge in the Electoral College albeit with a slight disagreement over who actually should have received the 25 electoral votes in Florida.

As the ascendancy of Raoul shows, it's really annoying when governmental control resides all in the family!

[laxfan25]

I'm sure that the Tories thought of the Colonials as terrorists but the result was the most successful economic and political system in the history of civilization. George Washington didn't install himself as President for life and then purge his government of rivals.

I don't know Cliff - the Greeks and Romans might argue the history of civilization point with you. Going into the American Revolution there was no way of forecasting how things would turn out. Our republic is still a work in progress, and that dynamic nature is what makes us great. Do realize though that until less than a hundred years ago we prevented more than half our population from exercising the right to vote!

The Communist Revolution in Cuba has to be viewed as a historical failure and one that has resulted in the deaths of countless Cubans over the past 50 years. He is/was a brutal military dictator who squashed dissent and centralized the country's wealth and power to the detriment of its citizens.

The historical vote may still be out on Cuba. After the passing of Fidel's old guard perhaps the elections may be free and fair. One ironic thing is that your description of him perfectly fits the ruler he overthrew - Fulgencio Batista. If your preference is for mobbed-up dictators, he was the man for you.

As long as we recognize the double-standard that we hold this island nation to, I'm good.

[Beta]

Cuban girls are hot.

[Zeuslax]

Well, you might as well go ahead and drop a link on this page about this conspiracy so the rest of us can catch up on these "100% facts." Thanks in advance.

I never said conspiracy, just politics. They are often one in the same though, are they not? I'm not sure what is so "conspiracy" theory about this anyway? One of the US's most adamant critics is dead silent on one of the biggest international gotcha's? That the law states that both parties have to agree to land lease and Cuba wants out? That the US said the prisoners have no right because they are not on US soil? That we lifted an embargo at precisely the same time we send food to a strapped nation? Now we're the biggest food exporter to Cuba? It’s all about the money and politics for both sides.

I did a quick search and lots of it leading to dead ends or pay services due to how long ago all of this took place. The top searches lead mostly to.......gasp.......NY Times and the BBC. Here's a few stories that popped up at the top of the search.

Remember this big news? Nope!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1714776.stm

http://www.amcostarica.com/121701.htm

http://www.allbusiness.com/central-amer ... 005-1.html

http://www.cubasource.org/pdf/Chronicle0112.pdf

Here's a real "conspiracy" for yea. The US is currently training Venezuelans and is still training Cubans in Southern Florida.

[nine]

sorry, i was at work all day and don't have access to this website. basically, stryker beat me to it (as usual) and his post after mine just about sums up my view, and in a much more eloquent manner than i could have done. i was a little fired up this morning b/c i mistook the overall tone of your post.

One ironic thing is that your description of him perfectly fits the ruler he overthrew - Fulgencio Batista.

additionally, i understand your point about a double-standard, however your quote covers why we put revolution in quotations -- it was a farce. he may have overthrown a cruel dictator, but he also eliminated all private enterprise and free thinking. and to me, no free thinking = no revolution.

[StrykerFSU]

Even with Fidel out of the driver's seat, it looks like Cubans are getting out while the getting's good.

Seven members of Cuba's national soccer team, which tied the United States in an Olympic qualifying match Tuesday night, deserted the team before its match Thursday against Honduras.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337813,00.html