10 Reasons Political Debates are Bunk

[Zeuslax]

For me, and the many who are troubled by our immigration problems, the conversation stops at the word illegal. There is no need to nuance the issue with economic, social, cultural, etc., factors. Some immigrants are following the law and some are not. Those that are not need to go. As you say, it's just that simple.

I understand your point. However, you have to admit that its way more complicated than that. It's just not black and white. There have been countless examples regarding illegal immigration over the past few years that have exhibited this. Most recently, you may remember the story about the soldier fighting in Iraq. His wife was illegal and the sole care taker of their baby who was born in the US.......and they were deporting her without regard to the kid. Just one example, I know. Most estimates indicate upwards of 20 million (some put the numbers at 25 mil) illegal’s in this country. Many of these illegal immigrants have kids now that were born here. What do we do about them?

Whether you like to admit it or not there are deep economic and humanitarian issues to deal with.

To enact "line-in-the-sand" measures now with current and future cases I can completely agree with. Not only are the laws in desperate need of updating, but the lack of enforcement and the absolute blind-eye method is despicable. For many illegal’s they view trying to get in the US in this manner. They can wait 5, 7, or even 10 years for their paper work to get processed to enter the US legally, or they can pay someone a few thousand dollars and take the slim chance of getting caught. I’m not justifying this thought process……..just pointing out that there are major flaws in the system. To me it’s easy to empathize with someone that needs money now to take care of their families or to improve their lives.

I think the conservatives on this board are just tired. They get beat over the head with the same stale rhetoric the media uses on a daily basis, and when the liberals are called on an issue, they simple change the debate.

Jac, I was only kidding. I think the conservatives are doing just fine on here. They beat us over the head just as much. Is the subject really changed that much on here? My opinion is that we see more deductive arguments then double speak arguments, typically. Just because someone may not agree with points or comments that are laid out with viewpoints from the other side of the isle doesn't mean that the subject has been changed.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Just for the record -- my views and opinions here in the Water Cooler are ALWAYS my own and do not represent the Washington Huskies, the PNCLL or the MCLA. I use my own name for recognition and never hide behind an anonymous nickname here on CollegeLax.us, nor have I ever in the ten plus years that Sonny has run our league's message board in some shape or form.

I am sure that there must be Huskies or PNCLLers or disagree with my views, so please do not ever hold my own personal opinions against either my team or my conference. Thanks, folks!

PS Soho your Monica Lewinsky tag-line had me rolling on the floor here!

[Jolly Roger]

Just for the record -- my views and opinions here in the Water Cooler are ALWAYS my own and do not represent the Washington Huskies, the PNCLL or the MCLA. I use my own name for recognition and never hide behind an anonymous nickname here on CollegeLax.us, nor have I ever in the ten plus years that Sonny has run our league's message board in some shape or form.

I am sure that there must be Huskies or PNCLLers or disagree with my views, so please do not ever hold my own personal opinions against either my team or my conference. Thanks, folks!

PS Soho your Monica Lewinsky tag-line had me rolling on the floor here!

Dang,

And I was hoping to use your posts get Simon Fraser "deported"

[Dan Wishengrad]

Just for the record -- my views and opinions here in the Water Cooler are ALWAYS my own and do not represent the Washington Huskies, the PNCLL or the MCLA. I use my own name for recognition and never hide behind an anonymous nickname here on CollegeLax.us, nor have I ever in the ten plus years that Sonny has run our league's message board in some shape or form.

I am sure that there must be Huskies or PNCLLers or disagree with my views, so please do not ever hold my own personal opinions against either my team or my conference. Thanks, folks!

PS Soho your Monica Lewinsky tag-line had me rolling on the floor here!

Dang,

And I was hoping to use your posts get Simon Fraser "deported"

Well JR now that their dollar is so much stronger than ours we may have to actually build a northern border fence to stem the flow of illegal immigration -- to halt Americans fleeing north for a better life, that is. Join with me all for a loud and heart-felt sing-along:

"Oh, Canada, my home and native land..."

[Sonny]

Folks... we've got a little bit off kilter here.

Please debate the post, not the poster. Please refrain from the snide little attacks on the either side of the aisle - lest your posting privileges will be suspended or revoked (permanently).

I hope I'm clear.

[Dan Wishengrad]

My last point on the immigration debate, before I head out to work, is one that has yet to be brought up here:

The GOP has done a great job since the late '90s purposely reaching out to Hispanics -- an ethnic minority which had traditionally voted Democratic in overwhelming numbers. Capturing a larger slice of the Hispanic vote was a key demographic that helped propel President Bush to his '04 re-election victory, and especially his popular-vote win.

Will this illegal immigration debate we are now having help the GOP in 2008 with the Hispanic voters, or will it back-fire and send most Spanish-speaking citizens (who do have the right to vote) to the polls to vote for the Democratic nominee, instead? My guess is that if the Republicans nominate Mitt Romney it will surely be the latter, but if a compassionate conservative like McCain or Huckabee is the GOP nominee it could be the former.

By the way, for those who don't remember history -- during the Clinton administration the Cuban-American community -- backed by the national Republican party -- made a little Cuban boy, who was an illegal alien, into their cause celbre. How dare Attorney General Reno try to deport this little guy for only seeking to flee Castro's regime for a better life in the U.S., we heard from folks like Rush Limbaugh and the FOX-News talking heads. So this begs the question: Should illegal immigrants who serve the GOP's political interests be immune from prosecution and deportation?

[Jac Coyne]

I understand your point. However, you have to admit that its way more complicated than that. It's just not black and white. There have been countless examples regarding illegal immigration over the past few years that have exhibited this. Most recently, you may remember the story about the soldier fighting in Iraq. His wife was illegal and the sole care taker of their baby who was born in the US.......and they were deporting her without regard to the kid. Just one example, I know. Most estimates indicate upwards of 20 million (some put the numbers at 25 mil) illegal’s in this country. Many of these illegal immigrants have kids now that were born here. What do we do about them?

Absolutely. There are gray areas in most issues (even, dare I say, abortion) and exceptions to every rule. Your last two sentences are important. A huge carrot luring illegals to this country is our policy of automatically granting citizenship to any baby born on this soil, regardless of the citizenship of the parents. It's an archaic constitutional amendment dating to Reconstruction that needs to be repealed or amended again. This is a law that is not just being taken advantage of by illegals from this hemisphere, either.

Whether you like to admit it or not there are deep economic and humanitarian issues to deal with.

Oh, I admit it. And even if the government adopted a plan that appeals to most, there will still be pieces to pick up. Our government has fed a monster. But I believe you solve the problem by starting with "illegal."

They can wait 5, 7, or even 10 years for their paper work to get processed to enter the US legally, or they can pay someone a few thousand dollars and take the slim chance of getting caught. I’m not justifying this thought process……..just pointing out that there are major flaws in the system.

Exactly. This goes back to the repeal of the 14th Amendment. We have to determine the reasons why illegals will take the risk of coming here, and then eliminate them (the reasons, not the illegals...).

Just because someone may not agree with points or comments that are laid out with viewpoints from the other side of the isle doesn't mean that the subject has been changed.

Agreed. But when the discussion morphs from illegal immigration into dissenters being labeled "anti-Hispanic" bigots, I consider that a subject change.

[Beta]

Agreed. But when the discussion morphs from illegal immigration into dissenters being labeled "anti-Hispanic" bigots, I consider that a subject change.

Racism is a term the weak-minded throw around when you don't like a sports team...or don't like a coworker....or don't like a genre of entertainment. Yes, there are somethings that are called "racist" that truly are. But there are many that aren't racist in the slightest...but are made to be that way.

Didn't you know Jac? If you don't like something or someone in America...it's because you're a bigot. You're supposed to like everything in American with gumdrop houses on lollipop lane. You're not allowed to dislike anything anymore or have your own opinion unless it babies everything and everyone.

You don't like Obama? It's because he's black and you're white.

You don't like Hilary? It's because she's a woman and you're a man.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Agreed. But when the discussion morphs from illegal immigration into dissenters being labeled "anti-Hispanic" bigots, I consider that a subject change.

I have reviewed this entire thread from the beginning, and sticking to the issue of the illegal immigration debate, I do not see where myself (or anyone else for that matter) has labeled anybody "anti-Hispanic" or accused anyone else of bigotry. Perhaps Jac can explain what he means here -- seriously?

My original response to Sonny's post was valid -- that this debate about illegal immigration is not a "sure-fire winner" for the GOP is a valid point. The Republican candidates are debating the issue amongst themselves. Pres. Bush has called for a guest-worker program and an amnesty. Sen. McCain suported that bill. Rep. Tancredo led the opposition to this in Congress, and has called for all illegal immigrants to be rounded up and deported. Rep. Hunter and Gov. Romney have basically sided with Tancredo, while Gov. Huckabee sides with McCain and with Bush.

When I made the point about the GOP outreach to Hispanic voters, that was also 100% factual. The Chairman of the National Republican Party, Mel Martinez, has said bringing more Hispanic voters over to the GOP tent is a specific goal of his. But recent polling shows that this illegal immigration debate is causing a back-lash within even the legal Hispanic community in this country, who feel that Spanish-speaking people are being scapegoated for our society's greater problems. This same polling points to trouble for the GOP in this Presidential election because Hispanics polled say they plan to vote for the Democratic candidate with a much higher percentage than they did in 2004. So I raised this point specifically by posing the question to my fellow Water Cooler readers whether this immigration debate would help or hurt the GOP in '08. This is a valid question. It is part of the reason that I remain confident that the White House should swing back to the Democratic party next year, although the specter of a McCain and/or Huckabee nomination would certainly change that dynamic.

The larger question, from a purely demographic analysis, is what the U.S. populace used to look like, what it looks like today, and how it will look in the future. The U.S. census Bureau reports that non-Hispanic whites will be in the minority in America in the very near future:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_18722955

Hispanics and Asian/Pacific Islanders are the fastest growing ethnic group, while the Black population remains somewhat stable and the Caucasian population is shrinking, as percentages of the whole. The fastest growing region in the U.S. -- the West -- has the highest percentage of Hipanics and that percentage is increasing rapidly, as borne out by changes reflected in the 1970, 1980, 1990 and 2000 decennial censuses. I have been a fairly regular reader of ( and former subscriber to) American Demographics magazine since that periodical first came out in the late '70s, and it has contained some fascinating articles breaking down these census numbers for a look at the changing American landscape. These changing demographics affect the registration of our political parties as well, and will have an impact on likely voter turnout -- on both sides of the debate.

[Zeuslax]

Hispanics and Asian/Pacific Islanders are the fastest growing ethnic group, while the Black population remains somewhat stable and the Caucasian population is shrinking, as percentages of the whole. The fastest growing region in the U.S. -- the West -- has the highest percentage of Hipanics and that percentage is increasing rapidly, as borne out by changes reflected in the 1970, 1980, 1990 and 2000 decennial censuses. I have been a fairly regular reader of ( and former subscriber to) American Demographics magazine since that periodical first came out in the late '70s, and it has contained some fascinating articles breaking down these census numbers for a look at the changing American landscape. These changing demographics affect the registration of our political parties as well, and will have an impact on likely voter turnout -- on both sides of the debate.

This is why you see all of the Congressional fish flopping around on the pier!

[Jac Coyne]

Didn't you know Jac? If you don't like something or someone in America...it's because you're a bigot. You're supposed to like everything in American with gumdrop houses on lollipop lane. You're not allowed to dislike anything anymore or have your own opinion unless it babies everything and everyone.

I guess I had hoped for better. Oh, well. I'll allow the indoctrination to continue unabated here as I sign off for the holidays. Merry Christmas.

[Zeuslax]

Beta wrote:
Didn't you know Jac? If you don't like something or someone in America...it's because you're a bigot. You're supposed to like everything in American with gumdrop houses on lollipop lane. You're not allowed to dislike anything anymore or have your own opinion unless it babies everything and everyone.


I guess I had hoped for better. Oh, well. I'll allow the indoctrination to continue unabated here as I sign off for the holidays. Merry Christmas.

I'm really not sure where you guys are going with this? I completely get that some are resorting to the racism cards with the immigration debate, but not sure I get the sharp point being made. Did we suggest bigotry with our comments? Are you suggesting that's where the conversation is now?

I would like to think that we are not "instructing" as we debate, but learning from one another. Maybe we are just imbuing? Have a great holiday Jac!!

[Beta]

I'm really not sure where you guys are going with this? I completely get that some are resorting to the racism cards with the immigration debate, but not sure I get the sharp point being made. Did we suggest bigotry with our comments? Are you suggesting that's where the conversation is now?

I'm making a statement about the general consensus of America. If you don't like something that happens to be a different race/gender/culture than yours...it is not uncommon to hear "racist" or "bigot". If you're white that is.

Back to the topic...what's up with the Huckabee push lately?

[StrykerFSU]

during the Clinton administration the Cuban-American community -- backed by the national Republican party -- made a little Cuban boy, who was an illegal alien, into their cause celbre. How dare Attorney General Reno try to deport this little guy for only seeking to flee Castro's regime for a better life in the U.S., we heard from folks like Rush Limbaugh and the FOX-News talking heads. So this begs the question: Should illegal immigrants who serve the GOP's political interests be immune from prosecution and deportation?

All illegal immigrants should not be immune, just young children whose mother drowns attempting to flee Cuba. We are a compassionate society after all. Coincidentally, Elian turns 14 today.

For me, the illegal immigration problem stems from our government not knowing who is entering this country. I understand the economic theory that we rely on their labor yada yada yada but I would just like to point in that is some cases, there are Americans willing to do those jobs. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who worked summers at construction sites. I, nor anyone I know, am not calling for the deportation of people who are here illegally. I would like to see mandatory registration and an evaluation process to determine what services an individual provides this nation before they are given a work visa etc.

I get very tired of hearing stories about illegal aliens committing crimes in this country and not being deported. Why should we have to pay for the incarceration of a foreign national? Why are certain "sanctuary cities" allowed to prevent the Federal Government from investigating potential illegals? This is not about arresting the guy who cuts the grass or the woman who is cleaning a hotel room, it's about the drug dealer and the child rapist and the thief. For example, a man in Houston just shot and killed two burglars who as it turned out were illegal aliens from Columbia. One had been incarcerated in Texas for 6 years and then deported, only to return through our porous borders. The other had been in trouble for drugs but had not been deported because the Houston PD does not coordinate with ICE. Why/how were they in this country?

The first step is to enforce the current immigration laws that are ALREADY on the books. Second, we must control the border and conduct better monitoring of individuals who are here on visas. Then we need to document those that are already here. Then a determination can be made as to who may stay and who must go. None of this is cheap or easy but it is absolutely necessary.

And yes Jack White, I'm an immigrant too...it's just that my ancestors came here 300 years ago before there were any immigration laws at all and the economic, political, and social situations were much different.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Excellent, thoughtful post Cliff, and while you and I sit on opposite sides of the political fence I always appreciate your insights and value your contributions here. You have even changed my mind about issues once or twice!

I agree with Zeus that the beauty of this site is that we can discuss, debate and learn from each other. I think an elightened electorate is a good thing, and I for one have been elightened by some of you who I basically disagree with politically. Almost a decade ago I posted something about the unfairness of Pres. Clinton being impeached for having an adulterous affair and lying about it, and Sonny correctly noted that the impeachment was not about the affair but about lying under oath. He was right and I was wrong, and I came to really lower my personal opinion of Clinton, who sullied his own record in office (which still looks pretty good to me otherwise) through stupid personal actions and subsequent lies to cover it up. This is, coincidentally, why I believe that the VP should now be impeached, but until the Grand Jury testimony in the Valerie Plame outing scandal is released -- the White House is stonewalling the congressional investigation by claiming executive privilege -- I guess we may have to wait to see what Cheney's testimony actually was.

Anyway, I guess we won't get an answer to my query about who morphed this illegal immigrant debate into the explosive and inflamatory charges of anti- Hispanic bigotry, or when, but I guess that that accusation will just have to stand by itself, unanswered.

Happy Holidays to you, Jac, and to anyone else "signing off" for the next few weeks. The MCLA season kicks off in less than 60 days now, and I for one am getting pretty damn excited about that. It will be fun to start debating things like WCLL vs RMLC supremacy, or whether some upstart team should be ranked in the top 5 based on a rout of some poor "cupcake". You know -- the lacrosse-related issues that CollegeLax.us has become our collective fave for in the first place!