Free Speech (only if you agree with it)?

Non-lacrosse specific topics.

Postby everythingwentnumb on Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:42 pm

peterwho wrote:I think the answer to the original question is that, in general, Conservatives were raised by their parents to be respectful. They were the kids in the class who raised their hand and waited their turn. They were the kids on the debate team.

On the other hand, Liberals were the ones who blurted out the answers in order to get attention. They were the ones who gave wonderfully creative speeches, full of emotion, with little substance. They were the kids in student government who promised "big changes" but got a pop machine installed in the cafeteria, instead.


Seriously? I don't know why I'm responding to the idiocy of above statement. But, as Voltaire said, "I don't agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it."

Conservatives are by default respectful? Ann Coulter has books called Godlessness: The Church of Liberalism, If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans, and How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must). Rush Limbaugh called all Iraq War veterans who oppose the war "phony." Tucker Carlson made a complete ass of himself on CNN's "Crossfire" when Jon Stewart appeared. Et cetera.

Conservatives don't play on emotion? How many times does Bush justify the war in Iraq and the war on terror by saying that if we don't fight abroad, people here will die? How many times does the administration say that the suspension of habeas corpus and other fundamental civil liberties are necessary to make sure we don't have another terror attack? True or not, that's no more than telling people, "If you don't do what we say, you will die!" How many times do conservatives play the "Islamofascists hate our freedoms!" card? How many times has Rudy Guiliani played the 9/11 card?

You can't possibly claim that all conservatives are respectful of authority and are generally nice people because they all aren't. Conversely, you can't claim that all liberals are attention-seeking, gut-feeling people who hate America and authority.

Disruptors accomplish nothing beyond calling attention to themselves and blocking meaningful discourse. They are another factor in the polarization of opinion in our society.


What's the definition of meaningful discourse? How can we have meaningful discourse if nobody is willing to put issues on the table? I'm pretty sure nobody gave a damn about feminists until the radicals started burning bras and marching. Nobody cared about civil rights for minorities until a woman refused to give her seat up to a white man. Isn't getting kicked off a bus and arrested disruptive? Isn't the boycott of an entire mass transit system disruptive? Isn't that calling attention to oneself?

Modern example: the Writers' Guild of America is striking because they aren't being fairly compensated for new mediums of media distribution. Isn't that disruptive? And yet now here we are talking about it. We wouldn't be talking about race relations if Don Imus and Michael Richards thought before they opened their mouths, or if the Jena Six were not charged with murder for jumping a white kid (not saying they shouldn't have been charged with SOMETHING -- let's not get off topic here though).

If the definition of disruption is the state of being in which nobody speaks out against/for anything, then lack of disruption is what kills the public discourse. Without a catalyst, nobody will do anything. The big thing hurting the public discourse today is not disruption, it's apathy.

As to the topic at hand, my thoughts are summed up very nicely in the above, bolded statement.

In closing, let's examine the document that defines America:

Declaration of Independence wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


If the advocation of overthrow of government when it is no longer "by the people, for the people" isn't disruption and calling attention to oneself, I don't know what is.
everythingwentnumb
Water Boy
Water Boy
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:23 am


Kudos

Postby Dan Wishengrad on Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:40 pm

Very well said!
PNCLL Board Member 1997-Present
MCLA Fan
User avatar
Dan Wishengrad
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:47 am

Postby peterwho on Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:22 pm

I agree. Very well said.

As for my metaphor, it brought the desired result - to spark discussion.

As Dan often laments, the original question goes unanswered.

Does it advance the cause to simply shout down someone speaking? Examples include the various pie throwing incidents, the Code Pink ladies shouting at Ms. Rice and even "Don't Taze Me Bro'"'s rant at John Kerry.

In all of your examples, it is clear what the participants are rallying FOR.

In the cases forming the basis of the original question, the goal seems simply to prevent the person from speaking.

This appears to be a one-sided phenomenon - with the exception of the John Kerry incident (and if you look at the young man's web site, his goal is to get attention), they are all disruptions of right-wing/conservative speakers.

If this form of disruption is such a valuable instrument for change, there should be more of this at left-wing, liberal events. Right?
peterwho
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:50 am

Postby everythingwentnumb on Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:38 pm

First, I'm not your pawn. You did not use me to make a point. You didn't make a dumb statement to start a discussion. You made a dumb statement because that was your opinion, and you twisted my reply to make it look like you were trying to play Devil's Advocate or something.

Second, "Don't taze me, bro!" does have relevance in the public discourse. How many students there laughed, took pictures, and generally sat idly by, watching the whole thing unfold? Why didn't people either start making a scene about police brutality or start shutting the guy up before he was tased? The theme of the incident and what can we learn from it is apathy. It's the one word I can use to sum up this generation. People sit idly by and watch as, for instance, our leaders wage illegal wars or attempt to take the US to socialism (see, I'm NOT a partisan hack!) with universal health care. There are no more student protests about controversial issues that need to get time in the spotlight.

Michael Richards and Don Imus didn't have "let's start a dialog on racism today!" in mind when they both made racist comments. They didn't have the presence of mind to hold their tongues when they should have is all. The point is, we don't need to deliberately be disruptive to start a public discourse.

Now, your other claim is that there should be more "disruption" at left-wing events. Minuteman militia? Westborough Baptist Church?

Disruptions that cause dialog aren't happening at left-wing, liberal events because liberals are -- at least right now -- the catalysts of change. Today's conservatives are seeking to keep the current status quo -- repression of civil liberties, lack of health care, and fear-mongering. Nobody's going to go to a Democratic gathering and say, "I HATE MY CIVIL LIBERTIES! WIRETAPPING FOR ALL!!! LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!!!!11". I'm sure that if a Democrat gets into office next year and his first act is to repeal the Patriot Act, right-wing activists would go to left-wing, liberal gatherings and heckle them all for giving in to terrorists and hating America. It's a two-way street. We just happen to be going down one way right now.
everythingwentnumb
Water Boy
Water Boy
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:23 am

Postby sohotrightnow on Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:11 pm

It sounds like you have a lot of hate in your heart. Rush and Ann (we're on a first name basis) are Christian soldiers who don't want liberal heathens to ruin our country. What's wrong with that? Remember, the only reason you are allowed to say these horrible things is because U.S. troops are fighting a war halfway around the globe and are preventing Iraqis from flying over here in fighter jets and bombing the U.S.
Last edited by sohotrightnow on Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Monica Lewinsky had more president in her than George Bush ever will.
sohotrightnow
All-America
All-America
 
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:56 am

Postby Sonny on Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:42 pm

everythingwentnumb wrote:Disruptions that cause dialog aren't happening at left-wing, liberal events because liberals are -- at least right now -- the catalysts of change.


"Disruptions that cause dialog?" Please. That has to be one of the silliest things I've heard in a while.

Many folks (that lean left and causing these "disruptions") aren't interested in any "dialog" that they disagree with. They are all about shutting out/shutting down talk they don't want to hear.

Your right to free speech ENDS the second it infringes on my right to hear/exercise free speech. That's the whole point of my post.

If you want to make a speech down on the public square, fire away.

If you want to interrupt a public speech by another person, that ain't kosher.

everythingwentnumb wrote:. I'm sure that if a Democrat gets into office next year and his first act is to repeal the Patriot Act, right-wing activists would go to left-wing, liberal gatherings and heckle them all for giving in to terrorists and hating America. It's a two-way street. We just happen to be going down one way right now.


This isn't about heckling on a public street. The examples I cited at the very beginning of this thread are indoor public speeches by invited guests on collegiate campuses. No one in this thread is advocating taking away your right to assemble peacefully and exercise your right to free speech.

More public decorum from the left in this arena is warranted, that is all. If you don't want to go to a speech by Ann Coulter, don't go. If you don't want to listen to Don Imus, turn the radio dial. But to prevent others from participating is childish (at best), illegal (at worst).
Webmaster
Image
Image
User avatar
Sonny
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8183
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Beta on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:22 am

Sonny wrote:Your right to free speech ENDS the second it infringes on my right to hear/exercise free speech. That's the whole point of my post.


Exactly. Whether it's the government violating your rights...or another citizen...it shouldn't happen either way. Unless you like hypocrisy...because I know I do!

"You can't violate my right to violate someone else's rights LOLZ!!!!1!!!!!11!!!uno!!!!!"
Barry Badrinath: Oh man, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever drank.
Landfill: I doubt that very much, playboy
User avatar
Beta
Big Fan of Curves
 
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:00 pm
Location: A-Town Stay Down, GA

Free speech in Pakistan

Postby laxfan25 on Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:23 am

I guess this story shows why we should value and fight to protect our civil liberties here in the U.S....it's about Musharraf charging his opponents with treason. So much for Free Speech, hmm?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21683231/

We invaded Iraq in order to restore democracy - I assume we'll do the same here? Several bonuses if we do - we can then take a trip to the Northwest of the country and go drag out that guy we've supposedly been after since 2001. (Hint - most observers say he's here, not in Iraq or Iran). We can also take control of an actual nuclear stockpile that is incredibly vulnerable when Musharraf gets overthrown - which is a distinct possibility. The Pakistani Army is THE dominant institution in the country though, so in all likelihood we'll just end up with another military dictatorship and the U.S. will be fine with that, since it is much better than the alternative of actually having free and open elections, since we wouldn't like those results at all.

But the story on the treason charges shows what can happen when a government usurps power because of a claim of the threat of terrorism. Get rid of the courts, since those liberal activists legislating from the bench just don't get it !Imprison those that would mock the leadership or simply be in oppostition to it - shut down the TV stations and newspapers, etc. One can imagine that there might also be wiretapping and monitoring of internet and e-mail usage of the political opposition er, the "terrorist supporters".
While this is not happening in the U.S. it can certainly serve as a chilling reminder of what CAN happen if we are not vigilant in defending our rights.
User avatar
laxfan25
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:06 pm

Postby Zeuslax on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:07 pm

While this is not happening in the U.S. it can certainly serve as a chilling reminder of what CAN happen if we are not vigilant in defending our rights.


There seems to be some instances of free speech infringement that could definitely lead to these "big picture" examples that you mention here. Free speech is just one of a handful of protections that we are provided. We can not use one to negatively impact the other. Now, I'm definitely not a constitutional lawyer but it’s frightening to think that one constitutional right (free speech) is being used to harm other constitutional rights. It seems like we always put freedom of speech first? What if a person or party that is exercising their freedom of speech, is then placed in power knowing that if given the chance to exercise their freedom of speech they would most certainly take away other freedoms? We have seen many instances where "improper speech" has endangered freedom of speech by creating censorship or pressure on individuals or groups to be silenced.

It’s very, very dangerous to sacrifice one right for another.
Anthony
Zeuslax
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:36 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Free Speech (only if you agree with it)?

Postby Dan Wishengrad on Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:43 am

Sonny wrote:Question to those of you that think these actions are OK - Do you really think the First Amendment gives people the right to do this?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


This is an excellent question Sonny posed, and I have been reading this thread with great interest. For clarity's sake, we might need to examine the entire BOR:

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/fac ... illeng.htm

Sonny is correct (and constitutionally supported) to argue that we need to allow folks with differing viewpoints the freedom to speak, and we should defend their rights to do so. Protesters also have the right to peacably assemble and to speak in opposition, but to "shout down" their opponents is at least discourteous and rude, if not down-right un-American. But anyone who watches FAUX-Noise knows that this is not exclusive to liberals -- conservatives also love to shout down and try to drown out liberal arguments, and consistently so. But of course freedom of speech DOES have limits, as the Supreme Court has consistently ruled. You may not falsely yell "Fire" in a crowded place to induce panic, for instance -- you can be successfully prosecuted for creating a public disturbance.

But the larger question, to me, is that if you live in America (and truly love it), why don't you defend the entire Bill of Rights? Why do conservatives, for instance, hate the ACLU? Why do you ridicule liberals as "Card-Carrying members of the ACLU"? This is an organization created with only a single, narrow purpose -- to defend the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution. Why, exactly, is that a bad thing? Why does the right-wing use this term to disparage both the ACLU and the left-wing which defends it? Isn't THAT an example of anti-Americanism, too, like trying to deny political opponents to exercise their rights to free speech?
PNCLL Board Member 1997-Present
MCLA Fan
User avatar
Dan Wishengrad
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:47 am

Postby Zeuslax on Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:54 am

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Ahh Number 8: But what if you're not an American citizen? Can Americans still infringe on these rights if you're not in the USA club? What about no bail? What about no charges and no fines? What about cruel and unusual punishment? Maybe Dodd, Hill, Obama and Biden want to rethink not voting yesterday? "yea, but I didn't vote for it"!
Anthony
Zeuslax
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:36 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Postby Dan Wishengrad on Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:16 pm

Well, "cruel and unusual punishment" is somewhat vague. I'd argue that being forced to listen to Coulter or Limbaugh, or even to watch five minutes of FIXED-News is definitely cruel and unusual punishment. But being one who loves America, I have an on/off switch on both my radio and my T.V., so let them spew their hatred as freely as they want to. I am free not to listen.

Back to the topic and my earlier point-- perhaps Sonny, Cliff, or one of our other conservative friends here could answer my question about the right-wing's venom directed towards the ACLU. I honestly value your differing political perspective from my own and I'd really appreciate knowing the answer, because it truly perplexes me. Whether or not you guys agree with those who have made "card-carrying member of the ACLU" such a derogatory affiliation, maybe you could explain why it is so, anyway?

Here is the ACLU's actual "mission statement", lifted directly from their home page:

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights - freedom of speech, association and assembly; freedom of the press, and freedom of religion.

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.
We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor.

If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. We are nonprofit and nonpartisan and have grown from a roomful of civil liberties activists to an organization of more than 500,000 members and supporters. We handle nearly 6,000 court cases annually from our offices in almost every state.

The ACLU has maintained the position that civil liberties must be respected, even in times of national emergency. The ACLU is supported by annual dues and contributions from its members, plus grants from private foundations and individuals. We do not receive any government funding. Learn more about joining the ACLU.
PNCLL Board Member 1997-Present
MCLA Fan
User avatar
Dan Wishengrad
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:47 am

Postby cjwilhelmi on Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:53 pm

I have sat back and read this thread since the beginning and have a couple thoughts.

Just so everyone knows, since the political aisle that some people sit on are very evident here. I am pretty much a strict independent. I lean right on fiscal matters and left on social matters. I am actually more Libertarian than anything, or at least thats what people have told me. So with that in mind...

I find it absolutely hilarious that some individuals on here label Fox News as Fauxe Noise and other really clever titles. I find the other news channels just as off base on most of their coverage but just can't come up with funny little names for them. Yes there are liberal news channels and conservative news channels. Yes some individuals like one news channel over the other. However, neither one tells the entire truth. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of all the reports.

Every single person, including all those on this board, have an agenda. The agenda might be world peace or world war or whatever - but everyone has an agenda. The same things with all the politicians, PAC's, lobbiests, news media, whatever. The all have an agenda. What we need to do as intellectual Americans is to sift through all the agenda and left/right leaning BS and find the truth.

We all may have different opinions about the politicians but everyone has the right to free speech (expect yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theature, although you do have the right to do it). But as it has been said on here, your right to free speech ends when it infringes on my right. Such as with the right to bear arms. If your right to bear arms infringes on mine then its a problem. For instance, if you have a gun pointed at my house and you say your going to shoot if I buy a gun then we have a problem. All of our rights are the exact same way.

We need to live in harmony (is that a left wing slant there?) with eachother. We all make this country what it is and the right to free debate is what makes it great. The hilarious thing is that some individuals, on both sides, are name calling each other (Fauxe Noise anyone?) and acting more immature than a bunch of elementary school kids.

Not a single one of us knows what is truly best for the country. We just know what is best in our eyes for the country. That is why we have free elections every couple of years for different positions in government.

What would be terrific is for an elected president to have members of his cabinet be the best individuals for each position, regardless of political sides. It would be fantastic to see this, the country would be more unified and you wouldn't see so much bickering. Oh wait, that is what would be terrific in my eyes, yours might be different.

Personally, I don't like any of the candidates running for our highest office. What about someone from the outfield, what about retired four star general Tommy Franks? I have heard him speak, he has no interest in being president but neither did another general who became our first.

Actually I'm just going to vote for who is going to be the best for our military - my little brother is a marine (he's also planning on proposing today by the way). We need to look out for those besides ourselves. That doesn't necessarily mean stay in Iraq for a longer period of time or to "Cut and Run" (right wing reference anyone?). To me, in my eyes, it means that it would be someone who will enable to military leaders to have whatever means necessary to carry out the missions that they need in order to achieve success.

Laying the groundwork now, just wait for Wilhelmi '12. Any backers?
Assistant Coach, Lindenwood University
GRLC Treasurer
cjwilhelmi@yahoo.com
Pro-Lax Staff
www.pro-lax.com
User avatar
cjwilhelmi
I just wanted to type a lot of astericks
I just wanted to type a lot of astericks
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:49 pm
Location: St. Charles

Postby Dan Wishengrad on Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:32 pm

CJ, while you make some valid points you obviously don't understand why folks like me ridicule FOX-News and call it by those "silly little names". While it is a fact that surveys consistently show that the majority of those in the media are Democrats or left-leaning, it is also true of the majority of Americans with a college education. The majority of those who dropped-out of high school are Republicans and right-leaning, by the way. Every survey I have ever seen bears this out. And yes, there are some very intelligent and well-educated right-wingers - some of whom post here regularly.

So, true, most of the media in this country has opinions shaped by those who control them, and the majority of these are left-leaning. Of course there are many exceptions, and personally I find the notion of the "liberal media" to be a myth anyway. You might hate the New York Times for it's consistently left-leaning editorials, but you must also concede that the Times is one of the world's truly great newspapers. It is one of the few which consistently has reporters actually out there throughout the world investigating stories and writing pieces based on actual first-hand info, instead of just running AP copy or stories from other sources to make up for the fact that they don't have the resources to "do their own homework". The Wall Street Journal is even more right-leaning than the NYT is left-leaning. But it is also a truly great newspaper despite its political bent, and is the unquestioned authority on reporting business news from the U.S. and abroad. Both papers also present differing viewpoints, an on a regular basis.

Now we come to FOX. What makes this station NOT a legitimate news source (IMHO), is that it is driven first and foremost by an IDEOLOGY which shapes not only how it covers current events, but also by what it chooses NOT to cover. Whenever a story breaks that is damning to the GOP, for instance, FOX's editors (and perhaps Mr. Murdoch himself) choose to either not report on the story factually at all, or to editorialize before actually reporting the facts. When the Libby verdict was announced, after an exhaustive prosecution by a Republican Special Prosecutor for instance, FOX-News basically ignored it and chose to spend hours on the continuing search for Natlie Holloway who had been missing for two years already. They gave about one minute to the Libby verdict and then moved on, perhaps because they couldn't figure out a way to spin the story without reaching the inescapable conclusion that this verdict represented confirmation that this was a treasonous act which Cheney and Rove had committed but allowed them to escape judgement, while a subordinate was scape-goated in their stead. But this verdict WAS the big news story of the day, and only FOX chose not to treat it as such, and for purely partisan reasons. Shame on them.

Same goes for the story on the firing of the U.S. Attorneys. FOX basically ignored this issue to focus on "puff pieces", because it was clear that our US Attorney General, who was sworn to uphold the law, had put the political interests of his President and close friend ABOVE the law. I didn't agree politically with Ashcroft, but will concede that he tried his best to actually uphold the law. Not true of Gonzalez, he filled the Justice Dept. with political hacks and forced out career lawyers, many of whom were actually Republicans but had the temerity to uphold the law rather than use the office to further the fortunes of one political party, which Gonzalez was clearly guilty of from the day he took office.

If FOX chose only to "spin" on its editorial segments and shows, I would have not much issue with the station also putting on the blowhards like O'Reilly and Coulter. But the "hard" news it presents is so intentionally slanted or ignored, that it loses all credibility as a legitimate news organization. I recognize Mr. Murdoch's right to manage his network as he sees fit. But to call it "fair and balanced", IMHO, destroys any shred of credibility. And I am free to ridicule it. "We report and you decide", FOX likes to say... except they clearly discriminate in WHAT they choose to report.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... I say it IS a duck.

PS Congrats to your bro on his pending nuptials. I hope he enjoys a long life and a happy marriage, and that we find a way soon to keep him and his fellow soldiers out of harm's way in the Middle East. It is certainly not this Marine's fault that he is despised by many people there for following orders and simply doing his job. My thoughts and prayers are with him and with all our other brave men and women in uniform.
PNCLL Board Member 1997-Present
MCLA Fan
User avatar
Dan Wishengrad
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:47 am

Previous

Return to Water Cooler

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests


cron