How Much Time?

[BucLax13]

Beta making a law against killing yourself won't stop people from killing themselves... and if they want to let them... we let people kill themselves everyday through smoking, drinking or eating to much... and I know this may sound a little harsh but I am o.k. with that

[Gvlax]

Had a family member, g.f. close friend that is a girl or even a close guy friend who had to deal with abortion. I have seen it first hand and its not fun to watch a family member go through this. She wasnt all smiles going in and out of the clinc, her life has changed for the better but it has taken a long time to come this way. dont sit there and tell me that abortion is ruining lives when i witnessed first hand change a family member for the best.

Yes I have, on both sides (one having an abortion, and the other having the child). Do I need to get into specifics or is your assumed generalization crushed?

why would one person on here that fits into those categories crush my generalization? Generalizations dont have to apply to every single person. There are plenty of people who do not have first hand experience with this whos views could change if they were to experience them. Sorry i'm not hurt by the fact that you "crushed" my generalization. I have delt with this long enough to not be affected by people who share the opposite opinion of mine. but if you would like to feel proud of yourself then go ahead.

[Beta]

Beta making a law against killing yourself won't stop people from killing themselves... and if they want to let them... we let people kill themselves everyday through smoking, drinking or eating to much... and I know this may sound a little harsh but I am o.k. with that

Agreed on that one, I look at it as natural selection. But I am concerned about the child whose life is taken away before he/she even had a chance at life.

[Beta]

why would one person on here that fits into those categories crush my generalization? Generalizations dont have to apply to every single person. There are plenty of people who do not have first hand experience with this whos views could change if they were to experience them. Sorry i'm not hurt by the fact that you "crushed" my generalization. I have delt with this long enough to not be affected by people who share the opposite opinion of mine. but if you would like to feel proud of yourself then go ahead.

Oh yes, I am the proudest. You made an assumption, it couldn't be farther from the truth but hey I am only reading your words.

its easy to say how you feel about this topic when 1) you are a man 2) you havent had to deal with this in your direct life. when one of those two categories are met, then I will listen to what you all have to say.

Shouldn't you be listening to what I have to say?

And even if someone hasn't personally dealt with something like that...they're automatically not allowed to speak or your not going to hear their opinion?

How many politicians have gone to war? How many of those same ones send our friends off to war?

[BucLax13]

But it is an opinion, at this point, to when life begins. Opinion. so let the opinion of community rule, both sides a a little piece of what they want to define.

We can't even grant rights for a person when they are an adult (cough: guantanamo:cough) how are we supposed to protect the little guy (no pun of course)

[Beta]

But it is an opinion, at this point, to when life begins. Opinion. so let the opinion of community rule, both sides a a little piece of what they want to define.

Exactly, we're within the community so we're discussing it.

(cough: guantanamo:cough)

.

(Edited)

I just wanted to point out that all of us are here and able to discuss the abortion topic because our mothers decided to keep us. Ironic huh?

[Zamboni_Driver]

Beta - I respect your thoughts. I think debates are not an attempt to convince the other side that you are correct, it is to become more solid in your own argument. So I appreciate your voice..

But I have to ask about these two quotes-

I
Thoughts: Killing = killing = killing = killing = killing, etc etc etc you get the point.

Giving society an easy out for a problem isn't going to make people wise up and make the right decisions beforehand.

I interpret your first statement to say abortions should not be allowable in any case even in the case of rape or incest - is that the way you feel?

I bring it up because the second quote is more what I interpret from the anti- side. A group that is truly looking to force people into making what they consider smarter decisions. This is why the anti- group never protests a rape victim getting an abortion, but goes after a college woman who had a fling.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Those of you arguing this should just be left up to the states, or local communities -- sorry, but that is just a moral cop-out and a specious argument. The right to own other people as slaves should be left up to the states to decide, many you would have said 150 years ago. This is the exact same debate.

We fought a very bloody Civil War in the nation from 1861-1865 over states' rights, and the Confederacy LOST -- just in case some of you don't remember our American history and need a reminder. Our great Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, said that a house divided against itself can not stand.

[Beta]

I bring it up because the second quote is more what I interpret from the anti- side. A group that is truly looking to force people into making what they consider smarter decisions. This is why the anti- group never protests a rape victim getting an abortion, but goes after a college woman who had a fling.

Ah, I stated earlier in one of my billion posts on this topic that I am talking about non-rape/non-criminal pregnancy abortions since those make up a smaller fraction of the majority and that topic is a whole new mess.

I look at it this way. The instance of rape, or incest is tragic indeed. It's awful beyond imagination that the woman's rights were violated by some scum bag.

The crime committed against the woman doesn't mean that another innocent person has to suffer, in this case the child. I vote for the case of birth then adoption. Obviously I, nor anyone but a woman in that situation has no clue what it's like to have a child from those circumstances (that's another reason I wish rape punishments were so severe/scary that men wouldn't dare do such a cowardly, pathetic thing). But if that were case, and abortion were only legal for rape victims...all a woman has to say is "I was raped", which unfortunately is all a woman has to do nowadays to create a firestorm if the claim is true or not.

I fully understand that there are some awful situations that can arise. You can be engaged to a woman...and she is raped and impregnated..imagine how terrible that would be. I mean yeah, there are some awful scenarios. Just like with everything. War isn't glamorous, innocent people die too. It's basically a fact that nothing is 100%, ever. But if you can make it 99% and then try to fix the other things...that's a damn good start IMHO.

[laxfan25]

I just think that if guys got pregnant abortions would be available at the local Med Station, and it is unfair for the males in society to take control over womens' bodies. I think it is also hypocritical to not allow easy access to the morning-after pill. It is a private decision, one between a woman an her doctor.

So if a man/woman wants to kill themselves it's OK because it's their body?

Gee, I don't think that's what I was saying at all. However, I'm not against someone who is terminally ill from having control over their method of passing, or having a family member make that decision if I was incompetent (more so than I am when I'm conscious!). The Terri Schiavo case was a perfect example of what I would want to avoid.
I am against women having the right to tell you to have a vasectomy because they don't like the kind of offspring a person may produce, or not have one because your sperm is a living organism. (That kind of thinking could lead towards all kinds of conundrums in your love life! )

It's not that big a step to telling the bitches they've gotta wear a burkah! (Sarcasm/hyperbole intended).

Are you implying that Islam has total control of their women?

I was implying that religious zealots such as the Taliban often try to impose their beliefs on society in general, and I don't agree with that. Some Muslim women choose to take up the chador, but that should be their right to choose. Similarly I don't want someone dictating to me or my wife or children what choices they have with their bodies based on their beliefs. Take care of your own life, and we'll take care of ours - thank you very much. It's none of your business!

[laxfan25]

I just wanted to point out that all of us are here and able to discuss the abortion topic because our mothers decided to keep us. Ironic huh?

Yes, we are fortunate to have been born into one of the most comfortable positions in history, and there is a lot of luck and happenstance that took place to put us here. My mom, along with having 6 children also had two miscarriages, so those are two potential lives that didn't materialize. With each disposed condom and menstrual period there are potential lives that didn't come to fruition.
A few years ago my dad was speaking as a lector at an Easter service and paused for a few seconds, then continued. Afterward I asked what had happened. He said that he had a flashback to WWII when he was a bomber pilot and an anti-aircraft shell tore a large hole in his wing and then exploded a few hundred yards above the plane. He said - "if that had gone off any closer to the plane yo wouldn't be here right now, and that's what I was thinking as I looked at you in the pew".
There is no doubt that with each passing day the decision to terminate a pregnancy becomes more difficult emotionally and psychologically, and is never a decision taken lightly by the mother. I don't know any women myself that go around saying "I can screw around as much as I want - I can always just pop into the clinic". But there are many that want to have that right because the condom slipped, the guy said "no problem, I've had a vasectomy" or any other reason that an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy might occur. If a women decides to go ahead in that instance - great! That's her right. If not - great! That's her right.
What really galls me is when right-to-lifers campaign against the "morning-after" pill that simply prevents an egg from implanting in the uterus.

[LaxTV_Admin]

For the sake of this post we will EXCLUDE all cases in which a woman engaged in involuntary sex.

Based of of this here is the assumption we must have in order to move forward:

Assumption: A woman engaged in voluntary sex, protected or not, with a man with knowledge that it was possible for her to become pregnant no matter what they did.

If we assume this to be true then it could be said that this individual engaged in an act which had consequences they did not intend?

As a result of these unintended consequences said individual is choosing to "undo" what has been done via an abortion.

I think the above is indisputable facts about the process of an abortion, correct?


If we assume all that to be true, then it could easily be argued that abortion simply put is an "oops" button. I mean honestly, person A and person B engaged in an activity which has consequences. If they did not like the potential consequences then they should not have engaged in said activity.

Let's look at another example of something that is life changing (I am going to get slaughtered for this example). When I was a freshman in college I choose to hit the party scene pretty hard and not study. The consequence of this I did not intend was to end up with a very, very low GPA. I worked my butt off the next few years, but as a result I never got my GPA high enough and did not get the job offers I was looking for. Do I get an "oops" button which can just automatically "erase" that first year? I wish I realize this is not of identical impact, but it is a relevant example.

Now, onto the next thing.

Exclusion: We will not consider artificial ways of fertilizing an egg.

Assumption 2: In order to have a child, the very first thing that must happen is for a man & a woman to engage in sexual activity.

If this is true then the beginning of life is the moment in which two individuals engage in sexual congress. Obviously, in order for that to come to fruition a lot of things have to happen (fertilization, etc.). However, you cannot argue this is the FIRST step to having life. If that is the case, then anyone who does have an abortion is in fact killing.

Did anyone else hatch chickens in 4th grade? We didn't say that life began when the chicken came out of the egg, we cared for it, and realized it was life from the moment the chicken laid the egg.

Look, I am pro-life but realize it is unrealistic and will not force my will upon others. However, if someone chooses to have an abortion they ought to realize they are killing life, not matter how you look at it. It is not the first heart beat, the first kick, etc.


Anyhow, I look forward to everyone carving up my argument. This is a really interesting topic. It never ceases me to amaze how constructive debates such as this can be so interesting. [/b]

[Beta]

I am against women having the right to tell you to have a vasectomy because they don't like the kind of offspring a person may produce, or not have one because your sperm is a living organism. (That kind of thinking could lead towards all kinds of conundrums in your love life!

We're not talking about getting sterilized. Because we're not talking about having women sterilized. That's a lifelong action that prevents you from ever having kids, whereas we're talking about making illegal the killing of an unborn child. I understand "apples to apples" in this situation is hard but geez, that's way out there.

I was implying that religious zealots such as the Taliban often try to impose their beliefs on society in general, and I don't agree with that. Some Muslim women choose to take up the chador, but that should be their right to choose. Similarly I don't want someone dictating to me or my wife or children what choices they have with their bodies based on their beliefs. Take care of your own life, and we'll take care of ours - thank you very much. It's none of your business!

No one is telling you what you have to do, if abortion were made illegal it would be what you can't do. There's a big difference between the two. There are many laws in place saying what we cannot do.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Look, I am pro-life but realize it is unrealistic and will not force my will upon others. However, if someone chooses to have an abortion they ought to realize they are killing life, not matter how you look at it. It is not the first heart beat, the first kick, etc.

Anyhow, I look forward to everyone carving up my argument. This is a really interesting topic. It never ceases me to amaze how constructive debates such as this can be so interesting. [/b]

You won't catch me "carving up (your) argument", Coach! You make some excellent points. But this second-to-last paragraph states you are pro-life as a matter of personal belief but are.... pro-choice as far as the law and its enforcement goes? Yes? I just want to be crystal clear.

I am also enjoying reading the divergent viewpoints and feel some compelling arguments have been made on both sides of this important debate -- except (as I said above) for the cop-out of leaving it up to the states or individual communities. But I think that any and all of you who weigh in on the pro-life side and state that abortion is murder should be required to answer the original question -- how much time?

[Sonny]

Those of you arguing this should just be left up to the states, or local communities -- sorry, but that is just a moral cop-out and a specious argument. The right to own other people as slaves should be left up to the states to decide, many you would have said 150 years ago. This is the exact same debate.

I'm neutral on the issue of abortion and I don't 'think R vs. W should be overturned, but I disagree completely Dan.

The two issues are not comparable. We have laws, passed by our elected government, that representatives from all 50 states in the Union have enacted. We have constitutional amendments guarantying basic rights to all US Citizens.

If you think abortion is such an inalienable right in the US, why not pass a new amendment to the US Constitution? You and I both know that wouldn't fly in many (red leaning) states.

Instead, you legislate from the bench. Which speaks volumes to our imperfect judicial system more then anything else.