Al Gore - Nobel Peace Prize

[Dan Wishengrad]

I strongly believe that JC has been our best EX-Prez in history -- actually building homes for Habitat from Humanity, monitoring elections, fighting for human-rights, etc. Very admirable, indeed.

This is 100% laughable Dan. Monitoring elections for guys like his buddy Chavez in Venezuela? I will give him credit for building some homes through Habitat. But Bush, Sr and Clinton did that too.

JC hasn't met a dictator he didn't like and undercuts US policy abroad any chance he gets. He also seems to forget that ex-Presidents don't criticize the current administration as has been past (unwritten) policy for all past presidents.

Okay, Sonny, let's see what Carter has actually said for the record about Chavez, rather than what the right-wing attack machine has claimed he has said. This from CNN.com:

"Shown live footage of the protests, Carter said the United States' reputation in the world is as low as it's been in his lifetime and that the United States has lost its prestige, authority and influence in Latin America. He added, however, that the chief opponent to the Free Trade Area of the Americas, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, is a "demagogue." (Read about Congressional passage of the Central American Free Trade Act)

Before the protests turned violent, Chavez denounced capitalism to thousands of demonstrators from his perch in front of a six-story banner of communist revolutionary Che Guevara. Protesters, including Argentine soccer legend Diego Maradona, listened as Chavez claimed he would "bury" the Free Trade Area of the Americas proposal. Maradona wore a shirt accusing Bush of war crimes, while protesters called the U.S. president a "terrorist" and a "fascist." (Watch the protests -- 1:25)

Carter defended Bush and dismissed as rhetoric the words of the Venezuelan president.

"The personal attacks on the president and the condemnations of America by Hugo Chavez from Venezuela, I think, are completely unjustified and uncalled for," Carter said. "Chavez is a difficult person with whom to deal personally. I know from my own experience."


The problem with the right-wing pundits whom you seem to believe, Sonny, is that they are so blinded by hatred of Americans (like Carter) who disagree with them that they invent facts to justify their opinions rather than reporting the truth of what Carter did and has said about Venezuela and its election. Yes, Carter and his organization declared that Chavez won his recall election, while others claimed there was massive election fraud. I don't claim to know the truth, but do you? Carter was THERE, he has harsh words for Chavez (who I agree is a lunatic and a dangerous dictator), but I will give Jimmy some benefit of doubt that you obviously will not. Chavez may be nuts and dangerous, but nobody can deny that he is wildly popular in his own country and especially with the poor and the indigenous people of Venezuela, who turned out in record numbers to vote there.

This is the problem with "nation-building" -- if you promote democracy around the world you might not like the results you get! This is certainly true in Iraq, where our current administration has changed the reasons for its war of choice from removing WMDs (which weren't there) to "spreading democracy" in the Middle East (as if there EVER will be one other than Israel's!). Now we are stuck with another corrupt Iraqi central government that we have propped up, but apparently they are not quite the allies we had hoped for. Thousands of Iraqis and Americans have died for George W. Bush and Dick Cheney's unnecessary war, and we are mired over there with no hope for a quick exit in sight. We are all entitled to our opinions of course, but I say that the current administration -- and not Carter's -- is by FAR the worst Presidency in American history. And I stand by my "100% laughable" opinion that JC has done more since leaving office than any other President, Republican or Democrat. Bush Sr's life of volunteerism since leaving office? Give me a break!

And to StrykerFSU, I concede that age when leaving office is a valid point, especially when considering ex-President Reagan. But Carter is no young man anymore, and he's still out there today as an octagenarian, working just as hard at what he believes in.

[Rob Graff]

Thanks Cliff. I appreciate it.

Rob

[laxfan25]

Dan,
While Hugo Chavez may be a demagogue interested in consolidating power around his presidency (trying to remove the term limits on the presidency that he had put in place a few years ago) throwing around terms like lunatic, nuts and a dangerous dictator would seem to be overwrought hyperbole. Terms like that could be seen as justification for a foreign government to feel that they have the right to go in and remove that person by overt means, rather than the covert attempts that have been tried.
Yes, Chavez has a leftist slant with a socialist agenda, and if that is what the majority of the people are looking for, that's what they will get. A large portion of the citizenry may not be in favor of him, but that is true in just about every country in the world. Some may question the results of an election - after all, how can someone become president if they don't win the majority of the votes? But if his platform is one that leans towards supporting the poorer masses, it's not hard to believe that he won the plurality.
The fact that Chavez is pals with Fidel Castro shouldn't mark him for termination, nor should his harsh rhetoric toward the US administration, which certainly doesn't consider him a friend (and in all likelihood has been undertaking efforts to destabilize his regime. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! )
So I would just caution about the flippant use of terms like "lunatic nut". After all, if that was the basis for "executive action" some people may feel that it is their right to seek the removal of Dick Cheney by military means - many people feel that he truly is dangerous.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Excellent points. But my personal opinion though is indeed that Hugo Chavez is a dangerous lunatic, and I don't throw that term around loosely. I have read alot about Chavez and what he has advocated, and believe that some of his public stances are beyond simple political posturing and represent real mental instability. But I don't believe this about our President and Vice-President, who I believe are simply dead-wrong in their policies and were wrong for their actions in getting us into the Iraq war. I may disagree with Bush and Cheney, but I believe both sincerely think they are right and are otherwise decent Americans who hold views they believe are best for our country, views that I am personally opposed to. I will continue to speak out against this administration's policies and support a Democratic opposition to these. But I don't hate those on the right or argue that they are "nuts" or lunatics". And I certainly don't hate those colleagues here who debate me on the issues I espouse. I geunuinely respect folks like Sonny and Cliff and others who consistently are on the opposite side of the fence from me.

We live in a great country where about as many intelligent people agree with me as those who disagree. I just wish that in our larger national public discourse we could debate the issues rather than the debater -- as we do here in the Water Cooler -- rather than launch these personal, hate-filled attacks against those who disagree with us. Too bad that the rules Sonny has established here to govern our postings can't be adopted by the national media!