Summer Ultra Preseason Rankings

[Pinball]

So its friday and i saw this same topic in the LSA forum and it entertained me, so i figured why not......

Div A

1. UMD
2. U of M
3. Marquette
4. SCSU
5. Olaf
6. UWSP
7. Mankato
8. ISU


Div B

1. SJU
2. UST
3. UWEC
4. NDSU
5. Bethel
6. UND
7. msum
8. Carelton
9. augsburg


In my opinion Olaf should drop down and then would be #3 in the B Div. Can this happen at the spring meeting?

[TexOle]

I thought MSU Moorhead dropped to Division B, and they are not listed. I also thought Augsburg was added.

Carleton will be a better team than people think. Their football coach supports the team. I saw him pushing a recruit to come play football and join the lacrosse team.

If St. Olaf does drop I think the UMLL loses its automatic A bid. I thought I heard that one of the North Dakota schools was going D1 in football which would likely cause the UMLL to move them up so they could go dancing. Adding a few new teams would increase flexibility, but I do not want to see the league expand to teams that are not ready. I think the discussion about St. Olaf dropping would be taken more seriously if it came from a school other than St. John's. I am not saying I am against Olaf moving, but those discussions need to start at St. Olaf. It is time to end this discussion on the board.

The spring meeting is also 8-9 months away. I assume you meant the fall meeting.

I think UMD continues the domination at Division A, but the U is closing the gap. I have to wheel the selection with UMD and UMN for the trifecta.

In the Division B I have to Box SJU and UST. I can't pick a pony to show.

[msum26]

yeah what no love for us? disheartening.

[msum26]

I agree with Tex.. The olaf dropping to B should come from them. If they choose not to and stay in A good for them. They were very competitive last year and as i remember there were a lot of people picking them to be the #2 seed. I believe the gap in A division is closing eventhough UMD will be the top tier for a long time. However, when i first entered the league it was UMD/UofM then the rest now i see it as UMD (shortened gay) the rest of the UMLL

As for B Augsburg is added as our 9th team, and Rob has also pushed that at the Fall meeting we drop our playoff form from 8 teams down to 6 as per the A division. A very good idea i might add. Gives the B teams something to work for and also have knowledge that not every team is going to play in the post season.

[Pinball]

yah i am an idiot.......

[DanGenck]

I disagree that the discussions should come from St. Olaf about them moving to the B Division. When the B Division was started, that formation did not come from SJU, UST, Bethel, and UWEC, but rather from the league saying, "Division A is for these schools and Division B is for these schools." St. Olaf and Moorhead remained in the A Division because at the time (and I recall this because I was at the meeting) everyone thought the B Division was developmental and therefore a demotion, which it is not.

We have been a leader in the MCLA with regards to our (almost) perfect split for Division A and Division B. The league should put pressure on St. Olaf to play in the proper division based on their enrollment and give us arguably the best B Division in the MCLA.

That being said, NDSU's football team is going to play Division 1-A at some point, which would mean they need to move up to the A Division to be eligible for post season play.

If St. Olaf moves to the B Division, we have 6 MIAC teams in the B Division, which would be amazing for our growth. High school players in the state would continue to see the B Division as simply enrollment and on par with the NCAA Division I/III split, which would mean greater recruiting advantages for all of the Division B teams.

Okay, I'm off my soap box.

[DanGenck]

One more thing, can we please not refer to the B Division as a "drop"? Since day one, we have stuck our chests out in the UMLL about the B Division being about school size and not talent. The more we believe this sentiment, the more of a reality it will become.

[whitcd]

To me if a team thinks it belongs in Div A, then it will do its best to stay there. With the record St. Olaf has had the past two years, they belong in Divsion A. 5 years down the road we judge more better.

I guess most of this point is to be why should the lower A teams be devoted to B.

Mankato has been member of UMLL since day 1, and has recent been unsucessful. You realize this as a team and try to correct it. I am very excited for the players coming to Minnesota State University next year

Being final, if St. Olaf wants to be in B, they would push to be there. Obviously they have no desire to be there, so why force them.

[UofMLaxGoalie11]

To me if a team thinks it belongs in Div A, then it will do its best to stay there. With the record St. Olaf has had the past two years, they belong in Divsion A. 5 years down the road we judge more better.

I guess most of this point is to be why should the lower A teams be devoted to B.

Mankato has been member of UMLL since day 1, and has recent been unsucessful. You realize this as a team and try to correct it. I am very excited for the players coming to Minnesota State University next year

Being final, if St. Olaf wants to be in B, they would push to be there. Obviously they have no desire to be there, so why force them.

I think the point about Olaf is that people are trying to place teams in the two divisions based on enrollment rather than skill. Keep the schools with larger pools to draw from separate from the smaller schools. The B does not need to be reserved for the teams that cant hack it in A. If I remember correctly, St Thomas did beat the U this spring. Does this mean that St Thomas and St Johns should be in the A division? No, they are just two small schools with stellar programs. Im sure that Olaf would see improved success if they were to make the switch to the division with smaller schools as well. But hey, if they choose to stay in the A division, so be it. Im sure several of the D1 hockey teams around here would be out of place if they moved down to the league with schools their size as well.

[Mavlax25]

Back to the question at hand

Div A

1. UMD
2. U of M
3. Olaf
4. Mankato
5. SCSU
6. Marquette
7. UWSP
8. ISU


Div B

1. UST
2. SJU
3. UWEC
4. NDSU
5. Bethel
6. UND
7. msum
8. Carelton
9. augsburg


I don't have very much insight on Division B and I am bias in Divison A but there are my predictions, take them as they are.

[oldmanlax]

NDSU Just became D-1AA in football a few years ago. They haven't been eligible for post season play for several years so don't get your heart set on them moving to D-1A. I am guessing the football team intends to be eligible for the tournament for quite some time.

If NDSU moves to A that is their call. Me personally, I feel they are competitive in the B division and need more time to build a bigger program. I know everyone says B divison is based on enrollment. Which is fine. But how about letting them build their team, gain a competitive edge, and actually bring competition to the A level....when they are ready. Like it or not, with the exception of the top three teams in B, it is based on ability.

UND is making the switch to D-1AA as well and begins their reclassification period this fall I believe. But what the heck, let's move both the dakota teams up, add more weekends to their schedule, charge higher fees, and insure they get rolled. God forbid someone focuses on letting the Divisions be based on talent.

Alright I am done ranting, here's my point. When the A/B divison split came, it was discussed that the top B team would go to A, and the bottom A team went to B. This would balance the talent pool. Since that is not happening, I feel the league needs to have the discretion at who plays where.

No offense against John's and Thomas, but wouldn't you guys like to move up to A and be successful there? I am not sure but isn't Duluth close to being eligible for the B division? Can someone explain to me why they don't move down? That's right because of their talent level.

Bottom line, base it on resources and ability. Not an easy decision but it makes more sense to me

[Rob Graff]

here's my point. When the A/B divison split came, it was discussed that the top B team would go to A, and the bottom A team went to B. This would balance the talent pool. Since that is not happening, I feel the league needs to have the discretion at who plays where.

Mike, you are just wrong. I chaired that league meeting at my law offices. And - as has been mentioned before - the A/B Split was done to further growth of lacrosse by grouping together teams of like backgrounds. Teams were given the option of what to do, as evidenced by MSUM and St. Olaf choosing to be "A" teams.

The goal - Mike - is to develop lacrosse at all levels. Having strong "B" division teams isn't an excuse to move them to "A" - In my personal opinion, the WCLL does that and it doesn't seem to help either the B or the A league.

[msum26]

I agree with Rob


Cronin this discussion has taken place numerous and multiple times. I dont believe a unanimous decision can/will ever be made. however, i feel if you look at our B division it is one of the more competitive leagues. As with the A you have the top Two teams with everyone else grouped and close by. It takes some time to foster a great league of two divisions. IF you look at the splits, decisions and recognition the UMLL has recieved i believe we are well on our way to be a top tier LEAGUE not just teams.

Travel is a big expense teams have to take on but like we choose to do this year was bite the bullet and go out and play some teams we have never played before. This is a vital step for team growth. Play good competition and take something away from it whether it be a win, lose, knowledge or expirence something can always be taken from it.

[USTLAX06]

I can't speak for SJU, (who obviously has a quality program) but UST isn't going to leave the B division any time soon. I played at UST for 4 years (2 years ago) and the entire time we ranged from atrocious to decent, losing the first UMLL B championship to SJU.

The thing we need to keep in mind is that the B division is in its infancy. UST has had a program since the mid 80s and it is just now really gaining a head of steam. There were some good teams over the years, but as a program, until recently, it lacked consistency. Same with SJU - years of mediocrity followed by a few years of extreme success. That doesn't mean that it can't change. A few stellar years can easily be followed by some down years as well. What I think you will find is that the other B teams will catch up fast.

For example, UWEC is much improved in a very short period of time. There is no reason other teams (A or B) can't follow suit. Teams are getting experienced players in as freshmen and although truly experienced coaches are still somewhat rare, there are more guys taking the helm that understand the game and can help get teams going in the right direction. I think that is applicable to all of the UMLL. I think the conference will only get better over time as the game expands in the Midwest.

We can argue over who belongs where and in what division, but I don't think anyone can look at how our conference has changed over the last 5 years and not be impressed with the level of improvement. The league is growing. The competition will get better and the level of play will start to even out in IMHO. That being said, I don't think it's going to happen tomorrow, but I don't think some of the short term fixes that have been argued every year since the A/B split are healthy choices for the longevity of the conference either.

[Pinball]

i will say this time and time again but the B division should not be based on talent, it should be based on size of school. We are not the NCAA but the NCAA is a great and successful model that we should attempt to copy.

The reason why we are suffering growing pains is because there was not specific goal/point or "mission statment for the div b". All across the country the Div b is viewed as the little annoying brother to the big pretty schools like CSU, BYU, UCSB. In the UMLL the B division is viewed like how the NCAA views divison 3, a place for small school to thrive. There is no way that SJU would be getting the support from our school and community unless we made the B division National Championship game back to back. It also gives teams like SJU, UST, Carelton a resonable and attainable (but not easy) goal each year. Even though I thought that SJU was pretty decent and there would be no chance we could run with the big time schools like CSU and BYU.

What the b division is not is a starter league, that is what the GLLL is for.

I do want to expand the UMLL to every GLLL school out there but only if they are ready for the commitment.

Look at SJU- 5 years ago we were the laughing stock of the league and now SJU is a dominant force. That is what happens in sports, your talent level will go up and down. Look at Mankato, they have said by their own admission that they are in a rebuilding stage- should we send them down? No, should we see if the Gophers BBall team wants to play some D3 competition because they are looking to be bad again and have been for a few years? Nope.

so the real question is what does the conference do with a team like UND, new team that draws from a large public institution? I belive that they should be accepted into the b division on a probationary status with intention of moving to the correct division in 2-3 years. So guidelines need to be set and i think the league fees should be more equal.

Div A:
10,000+ undergrads
Div 1 sports (for anything, not just football)
7,000 to 10,000 enrollment -it is now the choice of the team

Div B:
7,000 or less undergrads
Division 2 or 3 sports
Premature Team who is under three years from acceptance in the league that had petitioned to get to play down.



FYI-
St. Cloud State- 14,000
UMD- 10,000
UND- 12,000
U of M- 30,000
point- 9,000
mankato- 12,000
ISU- 25,000