Clarifications about BYU Lacrosse

[bbandlax]

After following the link on the front page that lead to Coach Naumburg’s online journal I felt I had to respond to a couple of points he made. This post may drag on but there are a few things that need to be cleared up, and since Coach Lamb probably would not be posting any clarifications, I will (noting that I am no longer affiliated with BYU in any official capacity.)

First I think that it should be said that my hat is off to Coach Naumburg for how well he has developed a lacrosse family and tradition at CSU since he became the head coach. They have been an amazing team for a long time and as long a Coach Naumburg is there they will remain a top 5 team year in and year out. As a BYU alum the rivalry with CSU has been great to have and my experience playing, coaching, and “fanning” would have been woefully incomplete without them.

In his recent journal post Coach Naumburg stated:

“By the way, BYU might consider going Division I because for all intents and purposes they are. They have it all, from well-paid coaches to awesome facilities (snow or not) and I believe they have some sort of 'scholarships' as well. No one else in the MCLA has anything close to what BYU has for resources. They also have 26-27ish year-old seniors with 2-3 children at home, not to mention that any Mormon in the world that can catch has an obligation almost to go play lacrosse at the BYU Holy Land. A coach in Provo need not worry if his players are out drinking/partying the night before a game. I don’t care about any of that, we’ll play them anyway, but we don’t have anything close to that. In fact we have children running our club sports department because the university can't pay anyone enough to stay and really do the job. I don’t care about that stuff either. I don’t deal with the university for the most part. I pretty much have others do it for me so no one important can see how I react when I see what we don’t get. Don't get me wrong, I think our club sports people do as much as they can for us. I just think that the capabilities at their disposal are extremely limited.”

http://www.csulacrosse.com/2007/journal

There are several points here that are misleading, and several that are way off the mark. Some of these points I have heard many times and just will not go away. I will just go through each so that all may be edified and we can rejoice together.

1. “well paid coaches” – I suppose this is relative. If you ask my 4 year old son, the small stipend that BYU pays Coach Lamb each year is a ton of money. However most of us realize that that amount of money does not go very far when you have 5 kids, a mortgage and all the fun deductions life likes to take from our monthly pay checks.

2. “well paid coaches” – No I am not repeating myself here, this focuses on the “coaches” part. Every one of Coach Lambs assistants, and I mean every one, have never, ever, received one thin dime for their time they volunteered to the team (my wife was a saint to let me feed my lacrosse addiction as an assistant several years ago). I have received the occasional shirt or two since leaving the team, and I think some how in Dallas I made off with Elliott Grow’s shorts from last year’s camps, but I don’t think my wife would consider that adequate remuneration for the time spent with the team.

3. “awesome facilities” – True the lacrosse team does have access to some pretty amazing facilities. They do however come second to all of the varsity teams (men’s and women’s). The team also receives money from the university as an operating budget. Now I am in no way complaining, but the BYU lacrosse team has never been given anything by the university because the school wanted to. Coach Lamb has spent the last 11 years developing relationships and massaging opportunities for his team. Minus one or two minor incidents, the team has been able to keep its nose clean. Coach Lamb demands academic accountability from his players as well as keeping the Honor Code they all sign before enrolling each year. This is why the lacrosse team has the relationship it has with the school and why it has access to the facilities and “resources” each year. All this could be stripped away in a heart beat with one wrong step by Coach Lamb or any individual on the team.

4. ”they have some sort of 'scholarships' as well” – Let me make this clear, there are not at this time, nor have there ever been athletic scholarships for lacrosse at BYU. My senior year I was able to receive a partial scholarship from the Physical Education Department (1 given out each year) based on my financial need (I was also a major in the phys ed program as an athletic trainer). I was not the best player on the team by any means. If any of the other players were receiving scholarships it was purely academic or need based (i.e. Pell Grants) and had nothing to do with playing on the lacrosse team. Currently each player on the team pays $3,000 each year (it think this is the right number, laxdad03 will correct me if I am wrong) to play for the team.

5. ”They also have 26-27ish year-old seniors with 2-3 children at home” – This is a great time to talk about the age issue at BYU. We could debate for a long time the pros and cons of the fact that most of the players at some point take a two year break from anything related to college athletics to serve full time missions for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints around the world. However the important point here is to look at the reality of the situation. The fact is still that this team won this year with an average age of 20.2 years old. And this is typical every year. The team had 29 freshman and 3 seniors. That is 1 senior for every 9.6 freshman. Every year the team is dominated (numbers wise) by freshman, with very few seniors. I don’t know what the average age at CSU or any of the other top 10 schools, but it can’t be much lower than 20.2 (especially in a year a team won the national championship.) As a side note none of the seniors were married nor did they have any kids (to the best of our knowledge). There were 4 married players on the team and none of them had any children either, at least from their first wife (hey someone was going to make a polygamy joke so I thought I would beat them to it so we could just move on

I have tried to stay mostly to the facts and not get into opinions on how those facts affect the team, positive or negative. Feel free to take exception to anything in the post. I did not post this to take a shot at CSU or Coach Naumburg. I believe he was just stating points that he heard somewhere or thought were correct.

[Woda]

1.+2.) Lamb also gets paid through the "Backers of BYU Lacrosse" (a non profit org.) Check out www.GuideStar.org to see the details. Also through the BYU camps he runs, don't try to tell me he lives off of 10k a year, honestly man, it's the 21st century here.

3.) Your facilities are better then most NCAA schools, lets be honest, that game field is amazing!

4.) The tuition at BYU is great for Mormons, for the education you get, its an awesome value, very affordable. I think this is the "Scholarship" Flip is referring to.

5.) Nothing wrong with that, its your way of life, Flip was saying it in admiration, not as an insult.

[bbandlax]

no offense man, but you are way off your rocker on this one...

1.+2.) Lamb also gets paid through the "Backers of BYU Lacrosse" (a non profit org.) Check out www.GuideStar.org to see the details.

If you only knew the history of this you would not be so cavalier about how he has been paid.

Also through the BYU camps he runs,

I never said he only lived on such a small stipend. Of course he does other things to supplement his income. My point was that he is not a full time head coach with a paid salary and benefits from BYU. Coach Lamb started these camps of his own accord in 1997. They are very successful and one of the best I have seen. Yet since they are controlled by BYU he makes a pittance compared to what most coaches would make running several weeks of camps with 600+ kids. BYU runs its camps to be a great experience for the kids, not as a money maker for the coaches. The school puts a great deal of the camp tuition back into the kids in the form of room and board, 24 hour-a-day camp counselors, and extra curriculars. Also from the camp tuition BYU has to pay its large full time, year round staff that runs all of the camps. In recent years Coach Lamb founded a great youth lacrosse league in Utah county. It ran with no profit for several years and is just now beginning to show a little return for all the work he and his family have put into it.

3.) Your facilities are better then most NCAA schools, lets be honest, that game field is amazing!

I agree. But lets not assume that the lacrosse team has access to them just because the school loves lacrosse. The CSU football team also has amazing facilities, but the lacrosse team doesn't get to use them. BYU lacrosse has access to these facilities because of 11 years of delicate negotiations by Coach Lamb as well as the team acting as excellent ambassadors for the university for many years. And don't forget the relationship is always tenuous since the lacrosse team is part of the PE department.

4.) The tuition at BYU is great for Mormons, for the education you get, its an awesome value, very affordable. I think this is the "Scholarship" Flip is referring to.

I disagree that he was talking about the great tuition at BYU. I have heard others talk of lacrosse scholarships at BYU as well. But you could be right.

5.) Nothing wrong with that, its your way of life, Flip was saying it in admiration, not as an insult.

I did not take it as an insult, or anything else Coach Naumburg said. I was merely pointing out the fact that the team really is not as old as most people believe.

You responded as though I was thought Coach Naumburg was trying to belittle BYU. I dont think that at all. I dont think you have all the facts quite right. I was just trying to set the record straight. Hopefully my original post did not come across as combative or defensive, because that was not my intent at all, just trying to shed some light on the situation.

[BigheadTodd]

I have to agree with Woda for the most part on this. Scottie, in your original post, you did make it sound like jason had to live off 10 gs a year. He is paid better than alot of NCAA coaches. And guess what? He deserves it. He has done alot for the team, and lacrosse in Utah county.
On the subject of fields and weightrooms and such, the reason people assume the lax team has access to them is because it has been trumpeted as such on BYU TV. Flip was right on here, he said you guys get a huge jumpstart on the competition, and that is the truth.
I think Flip is very envious of BYU(truth be told, I think the whole MCLA is)( actually I would say probably 45-60% of the NCAA teams are envious of BYU's situation), to have access to those facilities, and donors like the cougs have. Unfortunately, I do not see those sorts of things happening at a state school for a MCLA team anytime soon.

For the record, I am jealous of BYU's situation as well.

[AO]

Not to be argumentative, but I definitely recall having seen an actual advertisement by BYU lax in Lacrosse Magazine back around '99-00 advertising lacrosse scholarships. Maybe the program doesn't offer those anymore, but in all honesty they did at one time.

4. ”they have some sort of 'scholarships' as well” – Let me make this clear, there are not at this time, nor have there ever been lacrosse scholarships at BYU. My senior year I was able to receive a partial scholarship from the Physical Education Department (1 given out each year) based on my financial need (I was also a major in the phys ed program as an athletic trainer). I was not the best player on the team by any means. If any of the other players were receiving scholarships it was purely academic or need based (i.e. Pell Grants) and had nothing to do with playing on the lacrosse team. Currently each player on the team pays $3,000 each year (it think this is the right number, laxdad03 will correct me if I am wrong) to play for the team.

[bbandlax]

I have to agree with Woda for the most part on this. Scottie, in your original post, you did make it sound like jason had to live off 10 gs a year. He is paid better than alot of NCAA coaches. And guess what? He deserves it. He has done alot for the team, and lacrosse in Utah county.
On the subject of fields and weightrooms and such, the reason people assume the lax team has access to them is because it has been trumpeted as such on BYU TV. Flip was right on here, he said you guys get a huge jumpstart on the competition, and that is the truth.
I think Flip is very envious of BYU(truth be told, I think the whole MCLA is)( actually I would say probably 45-60% of the NCAA teams are envious of BYU's situation), to have access to those facilities, and donors like the cougs have. Unfortunately, I do not see those sorts of things happening at a state school for a MCLA team anytime soon.

For the record, I am jealous of BYU's situation as well.

I agree Todd, BYU does get a jump start on the competition when they can practice on turf or indoors (at least the cold weather folks, the southern teams and those in the west have it pretty nice most of the year, then again so does Michigan.)

I did say that Coach Lamb would have a difficult time living on what BYU pays him. My point is that Flip (and others) have intimated that he is a full time paid coach at BYU, which he is not. He is not better paid by the university than a lot of NCAA coaches. Coach Lamb does a lot of work to supplement what he gets from BYU. Others outside of BYU have seen his value at the university and have support his efforts.

Not to be argumentative, but I definitely recall having seen an actual advertisement by BYU lax in Lacrosse Magazine back around '99-00 advertising lacrosse scholarships. Maybe the program doesn't offer those anymore, but in all honesty they did at one time.

I have to laugh at this. I saw the same thing mentioned about 2 years ago over at lax power. I showed it to Coach Lamb at the time and he also laughed. I would love someone to show the advertisement to me, since the only person running BYU lacrosse since 1996 was Coach Lamb and he never did it, then there is someone outside of BYU offering money to play lacrosse there. That is sweet. I was playing in 1999 and coaching in 2000 and never saw any of that scholarship money, I got screwed. The funniest part is that it was brought up in an ""add in a lacrosse magazine". If you have any association with BYU you know that they look for a very specific type of player, and would never advertise in a lacrosse magazine to find that player. Ask JP, he would know if an MCLA team had publicly offered money to play anytime in the last 10 years.

[Beta]

BYU doesn't need to advertise for its team, and esp not for the school/education.

The only competition for BYU's provo campus is the BYU campus in Laie .

[Champ]

Heck any ONE of those points would be amazing to my old team.

Back at UMD:

Non-paid coach since 1992.

Field house which isn't the size of a lacrosse field 2 times a week. (odd hours: 10-midnight on Tuesday, 7-9 on Sunday)

No weight room access (only could use the student weight room).

No coach at practice (Graff lives in the twin cities, which is 2.5 hours from Duluth). Graff visits ~once a month for a weekend. Sometimes less often.

Most ever recieved from the school was $1,000! Holy cow $30k?!?


Must be nice

[sohotrightnow]

Flip complains too much. He has the most talent almost every single year. He didn't get it done this year, yet life goes on. CSU still has the most championships, and was in the finals for 7 straight years.

Perhaps he should stop taking coaching lessons from Joe Torre.

[bbandlax]

Heck any ONE of those points would be amazing to my old team.

Champ I agree. It is a great situation and I know Coach Lamb feels very fortunate to be there. He loves BYU and the young men who play for him. He has been associated with BYU for more than 20 years now. There have been a lot of "ups", but there have also been a lot of "downs". Fortunately for him right now he is riding a great "up". Folks just need to realize that he has paid a huge price to get the program to where it is today, just ask his wife and 5 kids. Many times she asked him to walk away because it was so hard. Coach Lamb has an amazing ability to relate to people and get them to see the possibilities that he sees. The athletes that play there have also been asked to pay a huge price to play (just as most every other team in the MCLA has paid). I think it is a bit of a slight to those players and Coach Lamb to assume that anything they have has come easy or continues to come easy. They all pay their own way to play (true they have a great tuition rate but they also pay 10% of all their income to the church for their whole life) and are expected to live a high standard as Coach Naumburg mentioned.

The University if very generous to give an operating budget to the team (I think the other extramural sports, rugby and soccer, receive an equivalent amount). For the last 10 years they have also cleaned 1/4 of the ~70,000 seat football stadium after every home game. It is with that money and the team dues (as well as a few generous donations for trips) that they have been able to provide some excellent opportunities to travel and play teams all across the country at every level.

[Jana]

The most plausible explanation would be an advert for the BYU summer camp - offering scholarships for financially strapped kids.

If BYU students are members of the church, they do get a break on tuition, but the same could be said for any state university that charges in-state and out-of-state tuition.

[Hugh Nunn]

One more perk for the 'Cougs: The network of Mormons across the country who will help facilitate travel.

In '02 BYU came down to Orlando to play UF and FSU, and stayed in a local Marriott owned by Mormons. I forget what discount or comp was involved, but there was one. I remember speaking with a Mormon from Orlando who had helped with that trip. I just wish that I could have enlisted the help of any and all Episcopalians for our team's travel!

This is in no way meant as a slight to the BYU program. On the contrary, it shows what might be possible for other teams. I think one could look at almost any of the top 10 in the MCLA and find practices that had their origins many years ago from player, coach, or alumni initiatives.

And Congrats to BYU for the year they had!

[Adam G]

And Congrats to BYU for the year they had!

Spot on, and the same to Montana... Well done, gentlemen, enjoy the offseason.

[Woda]

I never said he only lived on such a small stipend. Of course he does other things to supplement his income. My point was that he is not a full time head coach with a paid salary and benefits from BYU. Coach Lamb started these camps of his own accord in 1997. They are very successful and one of the best I have seen. Yet since they are controlled by BYU he makes a pittance compared to what most coaches would make running several weeks of camps with 600+ kids. BYU runs its camps to be a great experience for the kids, not as a money maker for the coaches. The school puts a great deal of the camp tuition back into the kids in the form of room and board, 24 hour-a-day camp counselors, and extra curriculars. Also from the camp tuition BYU has to pay its large full time, year round staff that runs all of the camps. In recent years Coach Lamb founded a great youth lacrosse league in Utah county. It ran with no profit for several years and is just now beginning to show a little return for all the work he and his family have put into it.

You are honestly going to say this, COME ON! Every coach that does camps makes bank, I don't care what you say. This is how coaches make a big part of their income!

I agree. But lets not assume that the lacrosse team has access to them just because the school loves lacrosse. The CSU football team also has amazing facilities, but the lacrosse team doesn't get to use them. BYU lacrosse has access to these facilities because of 11 years of delicate negotiations by Coach Lamb as well as the team acting as excellent ambassadors for the university for many years. And don't forget the relationship is always tenuous since the lacrosse team is part of the PE department.

Come on, again, your team has access to great facilities, not to mention you have how many turf field to choose from? A full field indoors that you get use of. BYU is the monopoly of the MCLA when it comes to facilities. I never want to hear the comparison that CSU gets the same usage as BYU.

I have NOTHING but respect for what BYU has done and accomplished, but they are honestly LARGE steps ahead of the competition when it comes to university support.

[DG]

Flip has built a program where guys want to come play for him. Admittedly, he doesn't really recruit...guys just kind of show up. From what I understand, the guy is a player's coach. I really like the style of lacrosse that his teams play. I have always been impressed with his ability to get some unknown kid to come out and go for 4 and 2 in the national championship semifinal game. His long-term stability as CSU's coach, his summer camps, plus his profile in the lacrosse world in Vail and with Rock-it-Pocket give him a nice advantage over other coaches. All of these things, plus the concept of the "Family" is an advantage that he has BUILT.

Jason is just beginning to see the fruits of his labor in building a program at BYU. He's starting to see kids come to play at BYU who would NEVER have considered it before. 2 of his most impressive freshmen this year are from families who are huge Utah supporters. Getting those kids to wear Blue instead of Red is a big accomplishment. The BYU camps have grown exponentially through his efforts from 40 kids the first year to potentially over 700 kids this year. He's now starting to see kids coming in to the program who have been through the camps. The facilities use has come slowly, and through a lot of effort both on the part of Coach Lamb and others in the BYU family. I do know that Coach Lamb has built his team on a varsity model. He wants them to be the best team that they can be, and that means working hard to get them the best facilities, best trainers, etc. that he can. Contrary to popular belief, none of that has been given to them on a silver platter.

My guess is that bbandlax is tired of hearing the same old things about the Cougs. The whispers of massive budgets, fully paid coaching staffs and scholarships never seem to diminish. The whispers were there when we were in Dallas this year, and that is a shame. For once it would have been nice to hear that the Cougs really played well...not that they played really well, and it must be nice to have such a big budget, coaching staff, etc.

DG

p.s. I guarantee that bbandlax knows more bout the REALITY of the situation at BYU than anyone else who posts here.