A Look Ahead to 2008 and a Proposal

[Dan Wishengrad]

Given the success accomplished this just-concluded season, the PNCLL has risen from "weak conference" to higher status, thanks mostly to Oregon and Montana's run through the nationals tourney. Our B Division is solid and deep, with more competitive programs than ever before. The A Division may still be dominated by one team as it has in years past, but the level of play of the other teams is unquestionably getting better across the board, although somewhat stifled by the small number of teams and big geography.

This past off -season, Joe Kerwin proposed splitting the A Division into two geographic sub-divisions, as we do in the B. I was against this idea at the time only because with only seven teams there was no scheme that made sense or was fair. But Joe's concept is sound, and if we continue to evolve and grow as a conference it could work nicely. Let's imagine, for a second, that Montana and Western Washington decided to petition to move up to play in the A Division. This is just for discussion folks -- it is my own personal flight of fancy, to give everyone food for thought and discussion. This is based purely on my personal opinions, which anyone (or everyone?) is free to disagree with.

UM and WWU are both large public universities with established, successful programs. Western was a historic lacrosse powerhouse, for almost a decade they were the only PNCLL club which could give then-dominant SFU a competitive game. The Vikings show all the promise of returning to earlier glory, with a wealth of high school talent arriving in Bellingham each September. Montana is clearly ready to make the jump, like San Diego and Claremont before them. IMHO both the Grizzlies and Vikings are not only "A-Division-Worthy" but could be competing for the playoffs immediately. I don't know if either team has discussed this seriously internally, and if there would be support for it at all. It is important to note that nobody could force such a move, both teams are defined as B Division by MCLA rule and are free to remain competing in the small school division.

But if somehow this came to pass, we would be only one Eastern team short of having a perfect 5/5 geographic divisional split. If Washington State is also re-admitted to the PNCLL (again another of those "IF"s), then BINGO! We could have:

A Division West
Oregon
Oregon State
Simon Fraser
Washington
Western Washington

A Division East
Boise State
Gonzaga
Idaho
Montana
Washington State

Travel demands could be minimized, the post-season could be expanded to six or eight teams, and both A and B Divisions could actually be strengthened, as the remaining B Division would be pretty wide-open, and certainly very competitive in the short run. Yes, the A-West would be much stronger than A-East, at least projecting an '08 season. But who's to say that this will always be the case? In a few years things could be different as youth lacrosse continues to grow and expand into Eastern Washington, Idaho and throughout the Inland Empire.

Anyway, I would welcome respectful comments and a serious discussion about the future of our conference here.

[Timbalaned]

I have always been a huge fan of this idea and am still for it. If the Board can make this work, then I think they should. The main reason would be it cuts back hugely on costs of travel if you only have to play teams in your division and of course you can pick up other if you want, and because of safety. Going across some of those mountain ranges in February is really dangerous and I think it would be better if teams did not have to go back and forth across them continuously.

[woulax23]

Dan i think your idea has merit. One thing i do disagree with, however, is WWU switching. I do believe them to be very good, however I don't know if they have entertained the idea of moving up, especially because they have not been dominant like Montana these past few years. So if they have talked about it i am not sure if they are going to be ready to move up, at least not without a year or two to really do some dominating work in the PNCLL and nation. I could also be way off here though. Montana I can see moving up next season and they obviously have entertained the idea based on this quote

I guess I'll have 25 hours on the bus this weekend to think over a move to Div A...

I think it is definitely a good plan if montana moves up and the A's can get some more teams. If it is ok Dan i would love to also see what people think we should do for the B Division also, of course your'e a moderator so if you want this to be about the A's only then you can edit this and I'll start a new topic. Anyways.... IF, once again it's an IF, montana moves up the B Divison South will short two teams, as LInfield is out also. I have heard talk that Humboldt might be there this fall to try and get into the league, and i have a close personal friend at Pacific who is trying to get a team going at their campus in Forest Grove. So if one of these teams comes and Monatana goes we will need a new structure..... actually regardless we will need something new because Linfield is for sure gone...... any ideas?

[Dan Wishengrad]

we will need something new because Linfield is for sure gone...... any ideas?

Sorry, you know for a fact that Linfield won't be back? I haven't heard any new developments since the club folded but had hopes they could come bring it back, as they did once before. Like WWU, Linfield is a charter member of the PNCLL.

[nlyon02]

As an outside club wanting to get in that would be amazing if this was able to work. First off, we would save a lot by not traveling to SF or UO. Second, those were the two top teams this year. I am pretty sure we would stand a lot better chance against the teams over here. It would be a nice way to work back into the teams like SF and UO. That is my opinion. Question to Dan though, is how would the playoff system work because the west teams would probably deserve the larger representation.

[I'm back baby!!!]

Dan all the talk i have heard from Linfield is that they will be starting a mens club team like that of eugene mens club, i only know this because Tim was trying to get a couple of our guys who graduate this year to play with them next year. I wouldn't however say its 100% out of the question that they come back, but i also wouldn't bet on it.

[woulax23]

we will need something new because Linfield is for sure gone...... any ideas?

Sorry, you know for a fact that Linfield won't be back? I haven't heard any new developments since the club folded but had hopes they could come bring it back, as they did once before. Like WWU, Linfield is a charter member of the PNCLL.

I thought that it was understood that they were dropping out of the league completely and i thought that the reprecussions for failing to make their games this season was that they would not be allowed to compete this next season. If i am mistaken on the actual league rules then that is my bad, however through other communications with Tim at Linfield and some of their players and assistants i got the impression that they were going to stay as a club at their school. However they were planning on competing as a men's club team, not a collegiate club team. Any clarification on the league rules for their forfietures last season?

[Ryan Hanavan]

It was a great week for both Montana and Oregon. I was really pulling for Oregon against BYU and I still think they definitely showed the MCLA-A that it's not just a RMLC-WCLL league. It was also great to see some of the SFU guys in attendance. Something tells me they will be on those fields next year.

I am also very proud of Kevin and the rest of the grizzly bears for putting together a great run this year. I understand the discussions on whether or not this team should be in the A or B will continue so I'm going to throw something out that I haven't heard much on in the past. If Montana's football team win's the NCAA D1-AA national championship would they move to NCAA D1-A? They didn't in 2001 or 1995. Another thought I had was; what about a title defense? How great would a run for another title be?

What would the benefits be for Montana to move to A? I know it would put another great team in the PNCLL-A but how would Montana benefit from this? Couldn't this potentially hurt recruiting? The goal has always been to build a long-term self-sustaining unit that is Montana lacrosse. Would moving now help or hurt in the long term?

[woulax23]

i would argue that the sustainability of Monatana's program is there. They have gotten top level recruits from across the country for the last three years in a row and i don't knwo why this season would be any different. I think that one of the prime reasons that people think Montana could compete really well in the A division is that they have the size and potential to get the draw of those other guys from across the nation. Smaller schools in the B division have a way lesser chance of getting a townsend hall or zander ault, however montana has shown that they can get these ballers to their school. With Westminster going up to the A division I can't see who is going to challenge Montana next season if they stay in the B division. Maybe i over estimate Montana here, but i feel like they could come out an compete in the A's next season if they wanted. Look at Claremont this year, they were top twenty five in their first A division season. I don't know how it would be not helpful if Motnana could go out and compete in the A's because they would be against the best competition that collegiate lacrosse has unless you are Varsity. I know that our guys would want to play the best competition we could, but it is not anywhere close to being a feasible idea for our team at WOU to play in the A's. I think Dan's argument here is that he believes Montana could do it and compete so if it happens we need to know where the A Division is going next season. I think it is more speculation as to if Montana has thought about the idea than pressure for them to absolutely move up.

[Kyle Berggren]

The more we talk about this, the more we need to figure out what the B Division is... Right now we have 2 divisions, 1 clearly better than the other. School size is NOT the dividing factor. I'll tell you what though, when you see the A Division best compete side by side the B Division best, it's quite a shock. Size, speed, talent, lax IQ, & discipline all pop into my mind when I think about the difference between games. That's not a shot at B teams, I coach one that I love, but if you looked the UCSB defenders in the eye & wanted to go out that, you'd have to be 6'8". While I know teams in the B can be committed & making the most of what they've got, we've got to figure out how they can be a part of the MCLA. What's best for these smaller schools (typically) in the long run?

Dan, I believe my 1 year term on the Board is up. I'd say if those teams get into the PNCLL, the split is fine. I'd love to have the PNCLL go through a 5 year period without a change in structure, or having a team fold. I would vote to exclude Linfield at this time from the PNCLL & I'm not upset about it. They weren't ready as a team to be a part of the PNCLL. I realize that it's tough to build a team if there is no league to participate in, but what a blight on the league when we lose teams. Could you imagine if Irvine was in our conference & left early?

[AflacLax]

I've been trying to talk about the reprecussions of great B teams moving up to A in another thread...but please allow me to chime in.

I'm afraid that many great B teams are thinking about moving up to A, maybe as soon as next season (Westminster, UVSC, Montana, St Johns). I'm afraid that after those teams move up others will follow (UNC, NAU, St Thomas, and others).

Now think who that leaves left and what that does to Division B. I wish that the teams left over will continue to grow and replace the greatness left behind, but I'm afraid this will not happen as fast. I'm afraid more B teams will not be willing to travel to nationals and forfeit bids and have other mistakes.

That would cause the MCLA to nix the B tournament. I'm afraid that schools like CSM will be forced to either play in a crappy "beer like" B league or be forced to play A. And I'm guessing a team like CSM would decide to follow the trend and play A like everyone else b/c we respect and enjoy the competitive atmosphere of the MCLA.

Sorry to hijack this thread...I just hope teams stop to consider that if great teams (Claremont, Sonoma, San Diego, Montana, Westmister, St Johns, and all other small schools stayed in Division B, the competition would be great and the MCLA experience would be great for both Division A and B. Competition has historically been better in A, but if great B teams keep getting better it doesn't always have to be that way.

[Kyle Berggren]

Scott, your point is very on topic for this discussion, thanks for sharing your opinion. I happen to agree with it, but I don't think it's necessarily best for the teams you've mentioned. Sonoma & Simon Fraser wouldn't get the level of competition they're used to seeing. The bottom line is it's tough to figure out how to make 2008 changes, if we don't know what the two divisions represent. An arbitrary split was made so that we could define the difference. 1A football effected the fewest teams. I don't believe it was ever intended to be permanent & I'm sure it will be a big discussion at the next MCLA meeting.

In a perfect world, I'd love to have the split Dan suggested, maybe not the two divisions as proposed, but the the teams up that were mentioned. I'd like to see a cut off for the smaller schools as per enrollment, & a clause that states if a team wants to move down from A to B, they'll never be able to move up. This isn't my own idea, but I don't know how public this person wants his name attached to it, so flame me. It prevents the B from being a developmental league, & could allow larger schools to play down. I would be in favor of a cooling off period if teams want to move divisions as well, say sitting out of competition for 2 years, but who knows. In the end, we're all here to play lacrosse. This league & conference are growing faster than I would have guessed, & it's not a beer league. Teams dropping out & moving around should be a rarity across the league, not normalcy. We can't allow teams back in with no repercussions from playing with ineligible players, missing games, etc. It effects all of us. The Board shouldn't have to be on the phone with a school's club sports director to make sure they show up to a game. It was only 4 years ago a team refused to make the trip to the PNCLL playoffs. I can't sight all the problems we've had as a conference in recent history, but it is time to step up to the plate & start removing the teams that can't handle it.

This is just my opinion, not the Board's. I do feel it's important if we want to talk about what the PNCLL will look like in the future. 4 home games is a joke, 8 is ideal, 9 is doable. A ten team A doesn't need divisions in my eyes. Maybe a scheduler sees it differently, but I think we'd be fine.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Back to the philisophical discussion on the A vs B split. I have made my opinion known for years and it has not changed -- I favor a university/college type split with the B Division reserved for SMALL schools that have a huge competitive disadvantage against the big public universities. In the PNCLL we have schools with under 2,000 undergrads like Whitman, and huge public universities like UW with undergrad enrollment of over 20,000. The MCLA made their decision to use D-IA football as the line of demarcation, which as Kyle noted affected the fewest teams and was easiest to implement. But I favor more of a DI vs DIII type of split, where the small schools have a competitive chance playing against others like themselves, instead of having to play Pac-10 teams. The best small school lacrosse teams could, if they outgrow the competition, then petition to move up and play with the big boys.

I would argue -- personal opinion only -- that Montana and WWU have more in common with UW and Oregon than they do with Albertson or Whitman or PLU. They are public universities with over 10,000 undergrads, with a big pool of undergrad men to build a team from every year. Couple that fact with the high level of play both lacrosse clubs have already reached and a move up to A, permanently, makes sense from a competition standpoint. Sure, SFU and Gonzaga could play down in the B Division, but they and UCSB, Sonoma, Lindenwood and others choose to "play up" because they have consistently good lacrosse teams and strive to be the best they can be. The small school division could play some very good lacrosse, but clearly the A Division would feature the highest level of play and be the larger division in terms of MCLA member teams.

As far as Western Washington goes, one poster stated his opposition, saying the Vikes weren't ready. I'd point out that San Diego won two straight B national titles but struggled this year as an A team, while Claremont, USD's conference runner-up, won some big games in the tough WCLL and got nationally ranked as an A team. Go figure. WWU lost a very close PNCLL Finals to Montana in a game that could have gone either way. Montana went on to prove they were the best of the B Division by winning the national title, they have nothing more to prove at that level in my humble opinion. There is stronger competition awaiting in the A Division, and it is where the Griz belong. But I think the San Diego-Claremont/Montana-WWU analogy is an interesting one, and IMHO Western should be an A team again, too.

[TheBearcatHimself]

Since a lot of this is talk about the Big Guys, maybe another little guy should chime in.

Here at WU we have continually felt that the 1-A football split is arbitrary and ineffective in fostering the most level playing field...you all already know this and clearly understand why we would think this. To sum this up using teams we are talking about Montana is a school of over 13,000 undergrads and Western Washington had 12,979 students in 2004 (thanks Google). Puget Sound, Pacific Lutheran, Lewis and Clark, and Willamette have 2,541; 3,070; 1,720; and 1,701 students respectively. This is clearly a separation in terms of enrollment numbers and thusly available bodies for sacrifice on the field of play. While the DI-A football split is a nice band-aid for competitive imbalance it does not atone for the fact that the Willamette Bearcats will not be playing the Montana Grizzlies in football and if they did it would probably be as uneven as when we played them in lacrosse. OK old words just new numbers and examples.

Now, should Montana move up? I certainly think they should for many reasons, not the least of which being they could probably compete and get a playoff spot next year. WWU? I don't know if they have entertained the idea at all whereas I have heard rumblings about Montana for some time.

To address the School of Mines poster's post, I would say that I do not see doom and gloom for B schools moving up for one large reason: the talent pool for lacrosse is increasing exponentially. While yes, the tournament will look far different next year without Montana and Westminster (and maybe St. John's too?) would it look any worse than this year's compared to last without Claremont and San Diego??? (And Montana BEAT Claremont in that tourney last year)

My point is this: Lacrosse is EXPLODING, we all know this fact, we all LOOOOVe this fact, we want to wrap ourselves in it and snuggle with it all night long. So lets not get all nervous and overprotective of losing "strong teams in the B" by relegating them to "B FOR LIFE" but instead lets pat them on the back and send them on their merry way to the competition and glory of the A division. In doing so, we show that schools who are considering adding a team can do so and become competitive in a very short amount of time. Also with the exploding pool of players, more B schools will continue to grow and develop their talent more efficiently and become more competitive. I do not see any way that we will not have elite B teams develop in Montana and Westminster's absence.

And the long and short of it is I do not see a scenario in which Willamette and Puget Sound and others will ever compete for a national title with Montana and WWU and other large universities. I do see a scenario in which we compete for titles with schools whose enrollments max out around 6-7,000 which includes Western Oregon, Southern Oregon, UPS PLU Linfield and many many many more.

VIVE LA DIVISION de B!

[Hi-Line Lax]

Just a few bits of thought for those of you who think you know anything about our program here in Montana (although the history lesson from Western Oregon was amusing)...
There are ZERO high school teams in this state... to me that means absolutely nothing towards providing a sustainable program. Sure, having players like Townsend and Zander are nice, but they aren't even the best lacrosse players that I know in Missoula... those guys don't play because when they did our team was a joke. My focus over the past two years has been at the high school level and right now we only have 10 sets of helmets and pads for kids here, they are a long way away from the high school programs of Washington and Oregon and I probably won't be comfortable about any kind of real sustainibility until those programs get online.
Most importantly though... we are still entirely student run and from my standpoint there is little light at the end of that tunnel (and I believe the same is true at WWU). Trust me, I've been as surprised as anybody that we've been able to compete at the level that we have for the past three years, but that was only on the lacrosse field. Off the field we still have ton of issues that need to be worked out and before that happens I see little reason that we should try and do anything drastic with our organization.
I'm sure that we'll have the full support of the PNCLL-B if we do choose to make a move to Div A, but I'd rather have the full support from our University first. I do believe that Montana (along with WWU) both belong in the A division, but I don't want to see either team make that jump without being prepared.

Dan- I'm glad that you sparked this discussion because if it started at the league meeting we would all be there for weeks...
I enjoy all of your comments on this subject as it will be something that I will be debating over for the next few months... but don't expect an answer about a Grizzly move anytime soon.