Future of Division B

[AflacLax]

Let me preface this post with the fact that I am aware of old posts that discussed if Division B should be developmental or not. The purpose of this post is to get the ball rolling with the executive council (i.e. John Paul) and to hopefully get the above question brought up at the next MCLA executive meeting.

Now here's my argument. Division B has had some issues brought up...Salem State, Calvin, UC-Irvine either not going to the national championships or going home early. Talks on the message boards justify Division B not being taken seriously, not expanding, just developmental because of the above issues - this all makes sense to me. With the best small schools playing up in Division A (San Diego, Claremont, Sonoma?, and others I am unaware of) Division B is left with less legitimacy. The problems with Division B will continue to grow if great teams like SJU, Westminster, Montana, and others make a move to Division A.

So the MCLA executive council needs to make a decision...is the MCLA going to recognize a Division B for small schools to compete at a high level or is the MCLA for all schools, regardless of size, to compete at a high level in Division A and develop in Division B. I think it's time the fate of Division B is decided and not speculated.

[Gvlax]

B division needs to stay... who cares what people think, whether B is a developmental league or a league for smaller schools. Getting rid of the B league will do more harm then good.

Im not saying the Div B league is perfect... far from it, but the MCLA needs to keep the B league around for schools who will never be able to get the quality of players that the bigger schools can get.

[OAKS]

B division needs to stay... who cares what people think, whether B is a developmental league or a league for smaller schools. Getting rid of the B league will do more harm then good.

A lot of people care. If B is a legit league, then the teams need to honor their commitments and not waste people's valuable time and effort. If B is a developmental league, we shouldn't provide a national tournament. When the teams get fully developed (financially and talent-wise), they can move up to the regular league. It needs to be defined one way or the other though.

[lil lady lax fan]

Here's an interesting thought: Could the amount of time that a league has been in existence be a factor.

The WCLL was around long before the MCLA was organized. As such many of the teams in the WCLL competed against each other with no distinction between A and B divisions so smaller schools played larger schools on a regular basis. Then the league was divided into A and B. I don't know if this has influenced the WCLL teams and their choice of divisional play, but it does seem like a factor.

[PigPen]

regardless of the point-maybe we shouldn't call it "b" division-kind of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I prefer divison I and division II. I still think there is a "club" mindset with a lot of teams, which is fine but not for this league-it's been demonstrated with rules and punishments that this is not what the MCLA wants. But there is lacrosse for everyone-be it the GCLA, NCLL, or the other various beer leagues.

[Zamboni_Driver]

One of the reasons I really am beginning to love this league is that fact I do believe the executive committee reads these posts and takes them into consideration. Below is some of my thoughts. I will warn that I am biased to the multiple division system, but in the spirit of being fair I address both who want two divisions and those who want one division, as well as those who think the MCLA is unfair.

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The MCLA = volunteer membership. "Volunteer" means programs choose to be a part of the MCLA and are able to leave at any time. "Membership" means you are responsible for adhering to the rules and regulations outlined for the group as long as you are apart of it. Yes that may mean working hard raising money so everyone dresses alike or playing a meaningless game, but you do so because these requirements are minimal to the overall benefit of being affiliated with the league. Once a team feels their requirements as members causes their overall experience with the MCLA to be negative, they should definitely exit the league and find or create a league that more suits their desires. The sport of lacrosse is a tremendously wonderful thing, everyone should be encouraged to find the facet of it that they enjoy the most.

But also to be fair we must analyze the MCLA construction as well. When organizations form, they usually do so by a proactive group that desires something better than what they current experience. They create a group with a specific vision that they see as the best path. In doing so they usually inadertantly create a system that fits their situation(s) best. As the group grows, the established norms that once caused the group to flourish, may no longer actually be what is best for the organization. This is not just lacrosse specific - all organizations must be willing to optimize their systems and evolve with a growing membership.

Reasons why the MCLA needs Multiple Divisions:

1. The MCLA has put a legitimate face to club lacrosse. It has become a true competitive alternative to the NCAA. Abolishing Div. B would potentially cause a split and the formation of a second league. [I know there are other leagues out there, but none of them is close to the level at which the MCLA controls public opinion] Although a 2nd league may not be affilitated with the MCLA, if it is a "bush" league it will reflect on all club lacrosse and hurt the MCLA.
2. Eliminated the B division will cause each conference to set up larger divisions that mandate teams play more conference opponents. If teams are tied up with more conference games, continuance and expansion of the OCC games, especially between Top 25 teams will diminish. In other words, everyone will have diluted schedules, and identifying top contenders will become increasingly hard.

Reason B Schools Need the MCLA:

Make no mistake, the luxuries enjoyed by the B teams, and A Teams for that matter, was the direct result of the people who worked, and by that I mean volunteered, tirelessly to create this league. Before someone questions the luxuries comment I'll specify -

1. Referees - From what I can tell the MCLA and the refeering crews work together to improve current refs while planning for the future through training young referees, so that the players in this league receive the best officiating possible. Now some will laugh at this but I've witness an improvement in the short time I've been obsering this league. Also think about this, operate 2 leagues in the same region. Without coordination, demand on the refs will increase, and so must their pay. Financially we benifit through "buying their time in bulk."

2. Tournaments/ Sponsorships - Both at the conference level and MCLA, these tournaments do not just happen. I know B teams contribute just as much as A teams to these, but that is part of your volunteerism duties. The reason we have personalized shirts, audio-casts, web-forums is because the leaders/founders have taken this league from the fringes to the mainstream. Contrary to what some may think, MCLA is not big business yet, thus the reason for these perks is personal relationships. Other leagues don't get these things, and it would be take a long time to create a similar enironment.

3. Credibility - If you didn't get it yet, the above basically states that your membership gives you credibility you wouldn't find if you left.


The MCLA needs to remain at the forefront of club lacrosse. NCAA has multiple divisions and no one ever compares them. But notice they don't put them all on the same national stage with equal represenation. D1 gets semi and finals; D2 and D3 get their finals in between. They have multiple divisions operating under different contexts. I think the MCLA should reorganize under a MCLA-National structure. Underneath is MCLA-LSD (Large School Division w/exemptions) and MCLA-SSD (Small School Division). National should be the board of directors with an overall CEO, presidents of both LSD and SSD, a lawyer, a NCAA/varsity rep, and a retail rep [I know these are loftygoal , but so was the idea of the MCLA 10 years ago]. Each division should have its own board/website/rules/tournament. There should be global governing rules set forth by national and then divisional rules that the conferences and their teams must adhere to. Each division can run it's national tournament as it see fit. In good spirit I'd love to see the LSD invite the SSD to atleast hold its semi-and finals at the same location. And if the SSD decides not to, that is great too.

Whatever the decision on B division, the world of lacrosse needs more venues the create competition, promote its expansion, and advertise its character.

[MidwestLaxer]

First off, Very well said Z.D. You make some excellent points.

I must say this conversation wouldn't be happening if there weren't teams which (in the eyes of many) don't live up to their obligations as members of the MCLA. Someone else said on this board that this is not a buffet where you can pick and choose what you like, and what you don't like.

With the rights granted to you by membership in the MCLA comes responsibilities. Those that demand the rights granted to them, and then don't take their responsibilities are simply freeloading off the backs of those hard working volunteers that spend so much time busting their butts to make this an amazing league.

Stop mooching off the system. Yes, that is exactly what you are doing! Until everyone buys into this league completely, both the rights, and responsibilities involved, it will be a bush league. The best of the best in A division don't mooch off the system. Guys like John Paul, Doug Carl, Ken Lovic, Jason Lamb etc. aren't the ones that are ditching out of games or mooching off the system. They are the ones that are working so hard to provide you guys with the rights that you deserve as members of the MCLA. What do they ask in return for their hard work? Not money or fame or prestige, but instead that you live up to the responsibilities of your membership.

I suggest every player in the MCLA think about that when they strap on their helmets to go out to practice or a game. Every coach in the MCLA should remember the hard work of the people around them that made this all possible. Don't let them down. Live up to your end of the bargain. Do THAT, and there won't be any more discussion about the legitimacy of the B division.

[John Paul]

I didn't know I was allowed to ask for money, fame and prestige. Am I? I'll settle for the money part.

I agree completely, however much of the blame for the lingering club attitude for many teams lies with our conference and league administration - me included. Our emphasis over the years has been growth, and because of that quality (or at least quality control) has suffered to some extent. We don't have the manpower to effectively manage both quality and growth. My emphasis over the past few years has been to limit growth, maybe even cut back, and focus on quality. It's still a battle we fight in board meetings and in the reality of decisions that are made every year at the conference level and the national level.

It's also a hard thing to measure. We need to re-examine our base requirements for MCLA membership and then enforce them rigidly. We can add to them year to year from there if needed, but we have to start with a base definition of an MCLA team and stick to it. We already have this, but we don't enforce everything - which means we either have to commit to enforcing our requirements as they stand or cut them back to something we have the will and ability to enforce.

[StrykerFSU]

I believe that it is imperative that all of the players understand that playing in the MCLA is a great privilege and not a right. It falls upon the coaches to impress on the players that when they sign up to play lacrosse they are entering an agreement with the MCLA that they will abide by ALL rules and regulations. A player has to understand that he will be expected to pay dues, raise money for trips, dedicate time to both playing and administrative duties, as well as just showing up for games and practice.

Initially, I was somewhat soft regarding that Calvin situation because I viewed it as an isolated incident but in retrospect and after discussing the issue with more informed individuals it has become clear to me that the MCLA is a great organization striving to provide an outstanding club lacrosse experience but it is not being respected by all of its member institutions. In order to continue to provide this invaluable opportunity, there are expectations that must be met by the member teams. If certain teams can't meet those expectations they should get in touch with their local NCLL conference.

I have played in Division 1, watched NCLL, and coached in the MCLA and can say that the Exec. Board of the MCLA is made up of some of the most dedicated people in the sport who truly care about the growth of the game. It may be time for some teams to question whether they are willing to respect those individuals' hard work and live up to their end of the bargain. There is no need to abolish Div B, but it may be time to trim some of the fat.

To paraphrase the immortal Ty Webb (character, not poster):
The MCLA isn't for everybody Danny, the world needs beer league lacrosse too.

[NKlaxguy]

Very simple solution, B Tournament should be invitational. Ask Calvin, "You guys accept? No? Ok Southwestern how about you?"

or "UC Irvine? Oh you're not sure you want to, ok well SCAD accepts then" Base invitations on final poll.

Yes not ideal, but at least you have teams you know will come, stay the tournament, actually want to be there, and not there because they want to but because they feel the pressure of losing their conference's AQ. Won't be printing up thousands of Tshirts with teams that leave early or don't show at all.

I say this should be a last resort technique, maybe give the B tournament one more chance next year, if teams keep screwing up, make it invitational, because by that point this will be three years this has happened and the division will have proven that even some teams at the highest levels do not have the resources or other reasons that keep them from attending.

[John Paul]

We are not in the business of running an invitational tournament, and in this I think I can safely speak for our entire Board. If that's what it's going to take (and I hope it's not), then B will probably go away.

Aside from the huge philosophical shift an invitational would mean to the MCLA, it would also be a very difficult thing to do logistically in the time frame we work with.

We never intended the B division to be a developmental league. Its purpose was, and is, to provide the same organizational and competitive benefits the A division provides, for smaller schools. We are not set up to provide support for a developmental league. If one is needed, and it may be, then it will probably have to happen outside of the MCLA.

I personally think we have many of the same issues in A as we are now seeing in B. I'm not convinced, as some may be, that we need to just cut B from the tournament or all-together. I continue to think we need to do a better job defining and enforcing, and we may need to consolidate across the board - but the B Division is a valuable segment of our league.

[NKlaxguy]

I agree, we should not be in the business of having a B invitational. However, at some point, if this keeps happening year after year, something is going to have to be done. And, hypothetically speaking, I was just looking at a solution besides cutting the whole B tournament all together. i.e. invitational, or maybe even shrink the field.

[Zeuslax]

This discussion about altering the tournament structure for Division B, "What should happen to B", and changing the B division is a little crazy right now. The rash statements and comments are not productive and many of them come from an emotionally detached base. Nothing needs to be changed with our current national tournament structure! The rules need to be clearly defined and rigorously enforced. There is a bigger picture that needs to be addressed and IMHO we are missing it here on this message board. We are starting to get a colloidal solution.

I agree about trimming the fat and enforcing our rules. This is the correct response to the actions that have taken place. There isn’t any need to adjust the composition of the tournament either. We need to start at the league level and ensure that all of our teams are 100% aware of the responsibilities and structure of the MCLA. We have many rules that are public knowledge, but where are they written? We are a volunteer organization and this means that the configuration has to match the level of commitment available. We also have a load of teams running around that don’t fit our definition of a MCLA team. Including plenty of A division teams.

The first place I think we need to start is with a league website that is a tool and resource for all. We have a lot of rules that are in place, but they are not public knowledge this information isn't easily obtained. The league should not only be there for consequences it should also have a constitution set in place to ensure that expectations are set for all….especially new teams. I would recommend that each league during their fall meetings take the time to outline and highlight the full scope of all requirements and responsibilities. Prospective teams especially should be sat down personally and a frank discussion should be had. We may need to start at square one with some!

The MCLA has to get a website! As precedent is set it should be made public and documented. I also encourage everyone to check out www.ncaa.org and look at the sections outlining Div 1, 2 and 3.

[PNWLaxer]

I am pretty sure the MCLA does have a website....I think the address is www.collegelax.us but maybe Sonny can correct me on that. I have also heard that there is something called the FAQ...which might be considered a resource for information.

I do agree that people should take some time to think about the long term before shouting out short term solutions that will need to be addressed again. The B div is in its infancy and I know the A div had some kinks as well. Recently think about eligibility issues with SFU, Oakland, CSU and Chapman. A team has been deemed ineligible 4 out of the last 5 years. I am sure the 1st National tournament also did not occur without a few hiccups.

I do believe that teams that decline their spot last minute or leave the tourney early should be disciplined appropriately similarly to Salem last year but drastic changes/cancellations to the tournament itself are not warrented at this point.

[OAKS]

http://www.mcla.us is the official website.