Div B Breaking News: Calvin is out... Southwestern is in!

[Gvlax]

So there is no difference between a team not accepting an AQ rather then a AL in the eyes of punishment?

[mholtz]

Also, I don't think that all of the schools in the MCLA would be open to allowing students to miss/take proctored exams for a club sport that the university may or may not even know exists. Don't assume that other schools operate the same way that yours does.

I don't buy this at all. Having been on the administrative side of an MCLA team, it's the responsibility of the team to get their name out their and express the significance of a national tournament bid and also, simply that your club team exists. If you're content to exist as an island and refuse to foster a good relationship with your school's administration, then why would they make any effort to support you?

Simple weekly visits to school officials, or tossing them a lacrosse golf shirt, go a long way towards getting access to things such as road-proctored exams, postponed finals and so-on.

"Don't assume that your school doesn't operate the same way other schools do."

I agree totally. As a coach at one of the biggest MCLA schools as far as student body and staff size (we have more employees than most schools have students) I can tell you that it's not fun, it's not always easy, but it is possible.

Some tips:

1. buy a dozen donuts for yours schools admissions office, and registrar on day one of the school year.

2. get official (or as official looking as possible) letter head and business cards from the school and use it to correspond with professors about your players.

3. talk with your AD or clubs sports administrators regularly. Our club sports director knows it's me by caller ID and answers "Hello Matt". Our athletics department facilities coordinator has my cell number on the speed dial of his cell.

4. If it is club sports, get in with the athletic department too. You never know when that will come in handy.

5. Always ask professors (when writing them) to "work with you and the student to reschedule any conflicts." Don't say "He needs to skip your class." Profs don't like that kinda stuff.

6. Talk to the student news paper and local media. You may never get coverage, but after a while they will get sick of turning you down.

I was able to do all this at a school with over 40,000 students. We had two players miss our bus to CCLA's because they had exams that they couldn't reschedule. One of those was an exam which had a reschedule date that overlapped with another of his exams (bad luck). They hooked up with a parent that was going down, and drove on their own. They showed up a few minutes into our first warmup.

Basically, start from day one working with any and every person that may possibly impact your program over the year.

It's not rocket science, and it can be done.

By this post I am neither condemning or condoning any action taken by any team (including Calvin)

[naptownlax]

As a member of Calvin's team, and one of it's senior captains, I feel I should comment on the situation, and hopefully shed some light or perspective, or at least give y'all some more cannon fodder if i fail at both...I warn you, this'll be a long one...so i apologize in advance, but i feel that it is important for this perspective to be heard - both for this particular decision, and situations in the future.

First of all, let me say: it sucks. No one is excited about what has gone on or the decision that was made. Every player on the Calvin team is deeply disappointed and frustrated. Having been to nationals the last two years, and taking this team, this league, and this sport very seriously, we realize just how serious this whole situation is - we realize the consequences for ourselves, our team's future, and also the frustration of every other team as they continue to push for the advancment of their own programs and the advancement of this league. It is a cold hard fact that we are hurting not only ourselves, but our conference and the mcla.

Second, I would like to say that our coach has made every effort possible to bring this team to dallas. He has been the strongest advocate for taking this team, no matter what the situation or number of guys. He has worked tirelessly for the advancement of this team and for the growth of the ccla and mcla. There should be no questioning of his commitment or his integrity when it comes to calvin, the ccla, the mcla, or the sport of lacrosse in general.

Also, it should be known that this was no easy decision making process - it was agonizing! Between Sunday evening and Tuesday noon were perhaps some of the hardest hours I have ever had to endure. As captains (both seniors), we both literally felt sick to our stomachs the entire time, but we are confident and very much at peace with our decision.

But when it boils down: (Andy has already outlined a basic reasoning) The captains and coaches, with input throughout by the entire team, made the decision that we felt was in the best interest of the people involved, even if that decision was contrary to the best interest of the team. This was one of the situations where we decided that even though not going to texas was not in the best interest of "Calvin Club Lacrosse", it was in the best interest of the people who make up that club - and ultimately, the best interest of the players, the students, is paramount. We arrived at this not simply as captains and coaches, but through conversation with our team. This may sound like heresy to some, but if it does, I would encourage you to think about it before blasting it out of the water.
The Club Lacrosse team at Calvin exists for the benefit of those students who wish to join - to learn the game, to be a part of team, and to grow in relationships. The Club Lacrosse team does not exist to win club lacrosse national championships. Now, if this is in conflict with membership of the mcla, then perhaps our club's charter needs to be revised. The beauty of the Calvin team (and most div B teams, at least, i would guess) is that after each calender year, there are about 15 more people in the world who are absolute lacrosse fanatics and 25+ guys have friendships that will last longer than their college careers. The beauty does not lie in any of the ends, but rather in the means.

Now, for those of you who may be thinking thats a lot of fluff without any specifics to this situation.....here you go. These are the main factors that led to our decision.

1st and mainly: Due to the dates of nationals being changed: 3 of our starters had made non-negotiable commitments for this summer before the dates for nationals had changed. Also, one other starter had a professor who was unwilling to change his exam times.

Now, here are the other factors that played into our decision. from reading all the past posts I realize that there may be varying amounts of sympathy, and believe me, we agree (calvin, that is) that there are varying levels of legitemacy to each, but I feel they must all be recognized, because they all have bearing:

Including injuries during the year and in our championship game and the beforementioned members unable to attend, the team, in just the initial consideration, would be down 7 starters, including the entire starting attack, as well as a number of the bench.
Every single member of the team would be forced to move their exams into a two day period with 5 days notice - now, this is not itself a legitimate excuse, we know, there was plenty of time to know when nationals were and when exams would have to be moved to, but frankly, say all you want about being ranked around 12 all year, this was not a reality until 5 days before all exams would need to be taken. Now, arguments against this are right on the nose, but i feel its important to recognize this difficulty (with full knowledge that teams around the country are making the same sacrifice)

Every single member of the team would be asked to shell out at least $500 for travel, again, we recognize that everyone is dealing with this, some teams even more.

As captains and coaches, we had discussions with every single member of the team as to their position on the situation.
We would be sending down a team that was not representative of our program or our conference while at the same time keeping teams that would be able to compete out, simply for the sake 'staying in good graces'. We would field a team that, though committed and pumped to play, in all reality, would not complement the national tournament. Now some may argue that this is awful - that we're keeping guys home from our team who would be pumped to play. But think about this...when you go and and represent yourselves, you want do yourself, and everyone else there, a service by representing yourself the best that you can. We were at the point, through conversations with our guys, that we would not be able to represent ourselves well enough to justify the effort of our guys, or any team we played, and we decided that it would be in the best interest to have another team go who would be able to represent themselves well. While some of you may view this as quitting, we do not. We feel like we made a choice that yes, sacrificed our best interests, but would result in a positive result for another team. I can honestly say, and some may disagree with this, that we do more a service to the tournament by dropping out and having another team go and give a legitimate game to UNC then by doing the service to the mcla of 'going because we were selected'. which is more of a service? perhaps we've played 'god' by deciding this would serve the mcla better, but we're confident in our decision, and we are confident that if changes are made to the selection and organization process, particularly about the 'invitation - accept or decline', this would be less of a problem and the overall benefit would be greater than a hardline commitment to developing a league in which "this stuff wouldn't fly".

Essentially, we asked our players this: decide if it's worth it: to move exams, pay upwards of $500, play with a team under 50% that would not be representative of us or our conference, keep a team that is in legitimite position to play out of the tournament, for the sake of experience and good standing in Club Lacrosse, Division B.

Also putting things in perspective, as may be strongly disagreed with by the participents of this forum, mcla lacrosse is not the end all be all in life. There is much more to life than playing lacrosse, the mcla is not a varsity league, when it comes down to it, Calvin lacrosse is about having fun.

I could go on about other specific reasons and arguments, but i think i have wasted enough of my own time and everyone elses. This is the gist of our decision, by no means complete, or positively airtight, but i feel that these reasons should be respected and changes should be considered.

So anyways, we are ready to accept any judgements and discipline. But don't villify us until you have walked a mile in our particular, Calvin-situation shoes.

Believe me, i'm bummed and upset, but when it all comes down to it, and then end of the day, i can speak for myself, the seniors, and all of my teamates when i say that we are completely confident with this decision, and we are completely at peace. Call this a 'big-picture disease' but we are not second guessing.
Also, Calvin lacrosse is focused on coming back next year and working hard, aware of the consequences and impact, but ready to take responsibility and move on.

Good luck to all at nationals! Calvin really does hope that it is an excellent weak and apologizes for the extreme inconvenience placed upon so many.

Jimmy Deterding
#19, Captain, Calvin College Lacrosse

p.s. if people have any questions or just need to get a load off, anyone can feel free to email me. I do not believe it is of any more benefit to come down on this incredible group of individuals for whom i have only the utmost respect, love, and appreciation.

[Hi-Line Lax]

Jimmy-
I have to say that I appreciate your post and it was good to hear from a player in your situation. Good luck to your guys in whatever situation they find themselves in next year, it sounds like on top of everything else they are losing a great leader.

I don't know if this might be a possibility for the future, or if teams would want the added burden, but what about the possibility of some sort of documentation from the school's administration saying that they support a potential trip to Nationals, to be handed in before the conference tournaments? I don't know if this would help or not, but it seems like the process might need some work and at least this would cover things like finals.

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

So there is no difference between a team not accepting an AQ rather then a AL in the eyes of punishment?

Personally, I think passing on an at-large at the last minute is actually worse than passing on an AQ. At least with an AQ, I could see a team come out of nowhere to win a conference tourney, and then have problems getting it all together to go to Nationals. . .

But with an at-large, you've been watching the polls every two weeks for 4 months, and you KNOW there's a good chance you could end up at the National tourney. There is no excuse at that point. If players knew they wouldn't be able to make it, they should have contacted the MCLA weeks ago and informed them of the conflicts, and removed their name from all polls.

In either situation, I think the MCLA should give the same punishment - as it appears they will. Like was noted earlier, teams from the CCLA will just have to play a bunch of OOC games and win their way to the tourney by beating other ranked teams. There's no reason GVSU can't play at Nationals. . .you just need to set up OOC games now. If you guys want to come to the PNCLL, I know we can find you some quality games, and I will work with any CCLA team that desires to play top B division competition.

[Rob Graff]

To echo Dr. Stockton's post for the UMLL, there are numerous full field indoor facilities in Minnesota that can host lacrosse games. And the UMLL is not that far from some teams in the CCLA...

Rob

[echo 600]

Yes yes, let's all bow down to the benevolence of Calvin College.

I don't buy it...and I do think it's fluff. All this talk about "starters not being able to make it," and Calvin not being able to send a team that would "represent" Calvin or the conference to me is just another way of saying the better players weren't going to make it and you didn't want to put up a doughnut at nationals.

A team is every guy that puts on that uniform in practice and games all year and goes out and represents the school. It's not just the starters or the guys that scored X% of the team's goals.

Every team has to pay extra to travel to this tournament each year. Just about every team has a conflict with exams. Guess what, teams deal with it. It cost me a bottle of Jamesons once to move an exam. And travel was nothing four guys piling into a car couldn't fix.

Sonny and John Paul and Jason Lamb and all the others who have tried to make this league evolve into something other than just a beer league over the years have worked pretty damn hard. I've seen them decline teams who wanted to join b/c they had a history of flaking out on games and ruining schedules. And they reason they do that is so that the MCLA does not become a come and go as you please league. No, this league is "not the be all end all in life," but it's not an ala carte menu either. Calvin should definitely take a hit over this.

[MidwestLaxer]

Also putting things in perspective, as may be strongly disagreed with by the participents of this forum, mcla lacrosse is not the end all be all in life. There is much more to life than playing lacrosse, the mcla is not a varsity league, when it comes down to it, Calvin lacrosse is about having fun.

You had me up until there. No, this is not the end all, be all of the world, or varsity, but being someone that has participated (either coached or played) at just about every level (middle school up through top 25 D1 Varsity) I can tell you that this is EXACTLY the attitude that will kill this league.

You guys that complain that B gets no respect, well start treating this like it IS the end all be all and maybe you'll start getting respect. I couldn't tell you one thing about any of the finals I took in college, or about any of the keggers I went to but you better believe I remember every second of a ton of the lax games I played in.

If you came here looking for sympathy, you came to the wrong place. If I were you I would just keep quiet and take my lumps and come back next year. Oh yeah, forgot, you won't be back next year because your lacrosse career is OVER!

Trust me, 10 years from now when you look back, you'll regret this decision more than any in your life.

I don't say these things to be harsh, but instead to be blunt. It's just reality. You had an opportunity that millions of people would kill for. I never had a chance to play for a national title. I would have killed for that. Maybe this thread will help some other team not make the same mistake next year.

And the "we were going to be missing 95% of our starters..." That lost me even more. Haven't you ever seen hoosiers? They played the little guy because that was all they had! If all you needed to play lax was starters then every roster in the country would have 10 guys. That is why you have a bench! That sends a heck of a signal to the guys at the end of the bench. Bust your butt all year, work hard, and when you finally might have a chance to go in we'll fold the team instead of having to play you because you suck too much. You're good enough to get beat on by the starters in practice, but not good enough to play in a real game.

Alright, I better get to work. Enough ragging on calvin.

[tjg1012]

When it comes down to it the decision was made in the Calvin Lacrosse players best interest (so said their captain), as are alot of other Calvin decisions. If the CCLA B Division as a whole is punished there are a whole new set of conversations that need to occur. Had this team prevailed over Dayton, they would be headed to Dallas (Andy even said that's when they lost the will to go). After they affected the scheduling of the CCLA tourney, and potentially inconvenienced other B teams that participated, they won't step up and make the trip to Dallas. I'll keep this player's identity secret, but even when asked whether or not Calvin would play on a Sunday if the Nationals were held on a Sunday, the player replied "yes, Sunday is a day for relaxation, but I think people would understand and we'd make an exception." When asked why the same consideration wasn't given to the CCLA tourney, the player simply replied "Coach can't push them around". It says alot.

[Andy Sharp]

Tim, adding to the hubbub some secret player's opinion does little good. The letter sent 4/17 by our athletic director made the college's stance on Sunday play perfectly clear.

CCLA Tournament Committee:

Our Men’s Lacrosse Coach, Andy Sharp, has advised me that due to a shortage of fields, you are considering moving the conference tournament dates to Saturday and Sunday.

Calvin College views Sunday as a day set aside for worship and rest or relaxation. Consequently, we do not allow our athletes to compete or even to formally practice on Sunday. This practice has deep roots in the reformed Christian tradition and has always been followed at Calvin College. Please consider this letter official documentation that Calvin College does not allow athletic participation on Sunday and has no plans of allowing it in the future.

We recognize your difficult position, but if Calvin College’s team were to reach the finals, they would be forced to forfeit the game. We are hopeful that you will be able to make arrangements to return the tournament to its originally scheduled dates.

Thanks for your consideration.

Respectfully,
Dr. Nancy L. Meyer
Athletic Director

There are other schools with this practice (#1 BYU) and it has been accommodated since the beginning of the national tournament.

[tjg1012]

Andy,

It's a bigger issue than that, and you know it. The letter from the school doesn't change the fact that accomidations were made for you by the other teams, then when it was your turn to do the right thing and repesent the very same teams (and the Conference) you let us down. If you had won, you'd be going, which means there is a deeper issue here. My main concern is for the CCLA B. If we are punished, because of your team's actions (and after you were so well accomidated) I will take issue with that.

[mholtz]

The CCLA and MCLA have always done their best to avoid having schools play on Sunday when their school prohibits it. BYU has the same rule. I was on every one of the conference calls, and the reason that the question of the B final being played on Sunday was even brought up had nothing to do with Calvin, but instead was an oversight on the part of the Kings HS Athletic Director. It was a simple human error. It's not fair to blame Andy for his schools stance on Sunday play. Since the inception of the B division, the CCLA has never had a B championship on Sunday.

There were very few people that were on all of those conference calls, and I was one of them so I can speak with authority on this subject.

I am not commenting on my opinion of Calvin's decision, but I am correcting any misconceptions that may be drawn from inferring that Calvin "manipulated" the CCLA playoff schedule.

The total and complete fact on that is we couldn't find a second field for Friday, we asked if they could play on Sunday. Andy said "most likely not, but I'll ask", the AD responded "Absolutely not" and we moved on and found another field.

Again, I am not condemning or condoning any actions. If you want to hear my opinion on this subject you'll have to drive to East Lansing, and buy me a beer or two.

[tjg1012]

Matt,

I appreciate you clearing that up. It's important to understand that, seriously. I was, however not intending to imply that Calvin manipulated (poor choice of words I used) the scheduling. The point was made to show that other teams (CCLA) accommodated Calvin so they could attend the tournament. This very tournament could have afforded them the ability to play in Dallas and no one thought it was right to rob them of that possibility. If the CCLA B division gets punished because, after they were given that consideration, they chose not to attend when invited, that is a selfish move on behalf of Calvin. The mention of the comment by the player was not intended to question Calvin's Sunday playing policy either, rather to show an indication of "what's good for Calvin is what matters" attitude. I also don't appreciate the Sharpie comment. A local business was seriously inconvenienced and the CCLA could be affected next year based on Calvin's actions, and there has been no hint of contrition or even understanding, only attempts to explain why we should understand their decision.

[mholtz]

Ah. I see what you are getting at. In that case... no comment.

[sohotrightnow]

You had me up until there. No, this is not the end all, be all of the world, or varsity, but being someone that has participated (either coached or played) at just about every level (middle school up through top 25 D1 Varsity) I can tell you that this is EXACTLY the attitude that will kill this league.

You guys that complain that B gets no respect, well start treating this like it IS the end all be all and maybe you'll start getting respect. I couldn't tell you one thing about any of the finals I took in college, or about any of the keggers I went to but you better believe I remember every second of a ton of the lax games I played in.

If you came here looking for sympathy, you came to the wrong place. If I were you I would just keep quiet and take my lumps and come back next year. Oh yeah, forgot, you won't be back next year because your lacrosse career is OVER!

Trust me, 10 years from now when you look back, you'll regret this decision more than any in your life.

I don't say these things to be harsh, but instead to be blunt. It's just reality. You had an opportunity that millions of people would kill for. I never had a chance to play for a national title. I would have killed for that. Maybe this thread will help some other team not make the same mistake next year.

And the "we were going to be missing 95% of our starters..." That lost me even more. Haven't you ever seen hoosiers? They played the little guy because that was all they had! If all you needed to play lax was starters then every roster in the country would have 10 guys. That is why you have a bench! That sends a heck of a signal to the guys at the end of the bench. Bust your butt all year, work hard, and when you finally might have a chance to go in we'll fold the team instead of having to play you because you suck too much. You're good enough to get beat on by the starters in practice, but not good enough to play in a real game.

Alright, I better get to work. Enough ragging on calvin.

How wrong you are. I remember my finals, the parties, and my times playing lacrosse. To suggest that missing out on a national championship is the biggest regret one will have is sheer madness. I am in no way, shape, or form pleased with Calvin's decision, but I find it ridiculous that you would take such umbrage. I would think that performing well in school and building relationships with people is worth more than a chance for a national championship. You can recover from not competing for a national title. I would surmise that it is much more difficult to recover from doing poorly in school. To each his own I guess.