Final Div. B Poll is out (5/6/07)

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

Carnegie mellon traveled out to play Augustana, Southwestern, and St. Johns this year

Given the preseason polls, that should have been a pretty decent road trip

Scooter, thanks for the clarification. CMU did play a very solid out-of-conference schedule. Unfortunately, CMU wasn't able to beat Southwestern or St. John's (although they played SJU pretty well). . .and they throttled Augustana, who had a pretty nice season.

I just wish the BEST team in the CCLA would have played those same games. . .I guess that's what I'm driving at.

Dayton will certainly be playing some great OOC games next week. . .starting with Cal-Irvine.

[Matt_Gardiner]

From the discussions I have heard, I think everyone recognized that the CCLA-B was legitimate. If you get two teams in to Nationals, your league is seen as legitimate. Calvin got into the playoffs based off of their wins against other CCLA-B teams more than their OOC games. I think the CCLA got a good amount of respect, the problem is the 15-30 range of teams is not very clear. Compile that with 6 strong CCLA teams where 3-6 is also not very clear. I could not rank 3-6 with any level of certainty. The result is that the votes get watered down among those teams. I am a staunch supporter of the CCLA, but could not justify voting in 6 CCLA teams when there are so many other strong teams around the country as well. I was consistently voting for 4-5 CCLA teams and leaving out one or two teams that may have been better. Other voters were putting in 3-5 teams that were probably all different after the top two.

As far as Laxpower goes, it can be very deceiving especially with the B division. If you play a very weak team and win by 100 points, it will hurt your laxpower rating. At the same time, if a B team played BYU and lost by 100 it would almost certainly help their rating. Take a look at the goal differential that Laxpower came up with projected for all three of Dayton's CCLA-A games. It may help demonstrate some of the weird assumptions Laxpower will make. The CCLA being so strong and well rounded will artificially bump your ranking. I am not saying the teams are not good, I know they are good. I just think that really the top 6 teams should be spread out in the top 30 or 35, not the top 20.

I am getting long-winded, but I just wanted to make the point that the CCLA was not overlooked and the voters were aware of the leagues strength and depth. If the CCLA-B was not as strong as it was, Calvin would almost certainly be on the outside looking in. I think you may be overlooking the strength of Southern Oregon, SCAD, UNC-Charlotte, Southwestern, Creighton, Northern Arizona, Salem State, et al. The league is gaining depth at an accelerated rate. It takes more than just being a good team to get a good ranking. There are too many good teams out there. The CCLA has always had my respect, and it has its share of the voters respect.

[AflacLax]

So Mines has been dropped from the poll for losing to Ft Lewis 14-7. Three weeks prior Mines lost to Ft Lewis 17-10. Both games were a 7 point spread. Obviously, Ft Lewis is the better team here and they are ranked a deserving 10th in the poll.

I see UCI is back on the poll at 18th after beating Pepperdine 11-10. 18th! Mines beat UCI by a goal and lost to Pepperdine by a goal. Sure, they're now going to nationals, but 18th?

Also Creighton's back on the poll after getting handled by St Thomas 18-9 and then handling two other teams (South Dakota and Bethel) who have a combined record of 4-13. So they're back on the poll. For the last poll Creighton recently lost to Ft Lewis 23-7 and beat Regis 12-9.

Oh, and NAU is ahead of Mines too. They did pull out a great upset over Montana State. I got to see the 2nd half of this game and they out hustled MSU. But still Mines beat NAU 12-3 and lost to MSU 8-7 in 2OT. Does it make sense that NAU is ranked ahead of Mines for beating MSU? Nope. Even though this win over MSU is great and reccent, Mines took MSU to 2OT, and handled NAU. NAU went on to lose to the VERY talented Westminny 4-22.

(No offense to any team mentioned. All you can do is play your best and hope the pollers get it right. I just don't agree with the bottom half of this poll.)

[scooter]

i personally think the bottom half is a crap shoot right now. The only teams i feel have a gripe is southwestern and charlotte, both of whom may deserve to be at nationals, but have their bubble bursted.

Since the season is over, the difference between 17 and 22 isn't worth much for teams not going to dallas. Next year these teams can try and prove their worth again.

[AflacLax]

I'm wondering why even rank out to 25+ with others receiving votes. If the national tournament won't ever be > than division A (16 teams) why not just rank up to 16+ teams or so. If there's less teams to rank then the idea is that the quality of ranking may be better and more time and attention paid to those deserving teams.

[nhoskins]

If you cut the rankings off at 16, how would you decide the bubble teams? I mean, Utah at #17 is a lot different than Utah (unranked). Having those "extra" 9 rankings allows for teams outside the traditional powers a chance at rising up in the rankings and possibly earning an at-large berth.

A number of teams going to Nationals this year did not start the year in the top 16, but were able to fight their way up by playing other ranked teams. Ranking a team #21 is a way to show that they're better than just any random team out there. Furthermore, ask the unranked teams how hard it is to get out of conference games.

[scooter]

i'm just saying for this final poll......not the entire poll

also, "unranked teams" generally need to travel for quality OCC competition. I doubt any team will turn down a game if a team is willing to travel to them

[AflacLax]

If you cut the rankings off at 16, how would you decide the bubble teams? I mean, Utah at #17 is a lot different than Utah (unranked). Having those "extra" 9 rankings allows for teams outside the traditional powers a chance at rising up in the rankings and possibly earning an at-large berth.

A number of teams going to Nationals this year did not start the year in the top 16, but were able to fight their way up by playing other ranked teams. Ranking a team #21 is a way to show that they're better than just any random team out there. Furthermore, ask the unranked teams how hard it is to get out of conference games.

I wish that were the case that the upper teams on the poll were correct and bubble teams were shown correct. Approx. 30% of A pollers didn't vote in this last poll and 35% of division B pollers did not vote. I can imagine being a poll voter is a lot of work, tiresome, and difficult and that is shown by the lack of even voting.

Now, I'm not saying the poll should be cut off at 16. I'm just postulating that it may be more accurate if there were a few less teams to vote for then the current 25.

[nhoskins]

Are you suggesting a top 20? A top 23? It's arbitrary anyways...

And the rankings have never been perfect, if they were, we'd just hand the championship to the #1 ranked team. There's always going to be errors, and that makes it interesting when there are upsets. How boring was March Madness this year with no Cinderella...

[Zeuslax]

Scooter wrote:

Carnegie mellon traveled out to play Augustana, Southwestern, and St. Johns this year. Given the preseason polls, that should have been a pretty decent road trip

Carnegie Mellon also scheduled New Haven, but they cancelled.

Personally, I don't think the CCLA was overlooked. Underestimated yes, but with the state of our league's resources and its ability to disseminate information it was the best that it could be. The voters took the information that they had available and used it to the best of their ability. Quite frankly, the CCLA was assisted by Carnegie Mellon's and Calvin's travel/participation in solid OOC play. This part of the discussion is often lost. Even a few teams (just a little more information provided to the voters) traveling can assist an entire conference.

Augustana organized and hosted a solid event by getting four solid teams from 4 different conferences. The week was a great benchmark nationally. St. Johns traveling to CA also provided the league with valuable information. More travel = more information. Teams have to be willing to travel (and reciprocate that travel) and not just host OOC games!

[AflacLax]

Are you suggesting a top 20? A top 23? It's arbitrary anyways...

And the rankings have never been perfect, if they were, we'd just hand the championship to the #1 ranked team. There's always going to be errors, and that makes it interesting when there are upsets. How boring was March Madness this year with no Cinderella...

I'm suggesting any smaller number and greater attention to detail when it comes to that smaller number. It can't be...and doesn't have to be perfect. It's too hard to rank every team and it may be too hard to even rank 25.

But forget about that. It's just a suggestion to alleviate problems like this poll where only 65% voted and the results were not good.

[Pinball]

I am not trying to be negative but does it honestly matter what position you fall in this final poll as you have fallen out of contention for a bid to nationals? Your season is over.

[scooter]

I am not trying to be negative but does it honestly matter what position you fall in this final poll as you have fallen out of contention for a bid to nationals? Your season is over.

i agree with you completely....up until this point it mattered, but it doesn't any longer

[AflacLax]

To the competitive at heart it always matters.

Did 2006 just boil down to San Diego #1 and everyone else #losers? No, it mattered that SJU was runner up and it matters to me where my boys are on the poll.

Till next year for them...

[bullhighutewoozgriffclam]

that spot will also have sway in the first polls of next year.