One Team Dominance

[PSLguy]

I was rather surprised to see the UMD conference scores this year. The PCLL, although certainly less so than the UMLL this year, has had similar competitiveness issues on the conferece level. The UNH and URI teams that dominated the PCLL 5 or 6 years ago routinely lambasted the rest of the PCLL teams but I don't think would stand a chance against the likes of BC or NU today. This is a reflection of what everyone else has mentioned so far, coaching and organization. Those early teams had similar talent levels to NU and BC but could never hack it at nationals because of coaching shortcomings and the lack of conference competitiveness. BC, NU, and UMD have seen the same kind of progression it would seem (although to my knowledge the second day winners bracket has still evaded the PCLL).

The established youth lacrosse framework and the existence of idle lax talent (kids who weren't coming out for whatever reason) at BC and NU meant that when the oranization got serious they already had the pool to draw from (I suspect that UMD has a similar experience). When that happened those two teams really shot ahead of the rest of the PCLL (just like UMD has) . UNH found out they had to start going OOC, which they have, URI and UConn found serious coaches, even the smallest schools in the PCLL go OOC every year now. BC and NU are obviously still the class of the PCLL but in only a few years since the other schools got reorganized they were able to take advantage of their "idle talent" as well, and their competitiveness has increased exponentially.

I don't know the extent of HS growth in the UMLL area, but I would contend that in the future it's a conference that stands to benefit far more from area talent than does the PCLL. I suspect that club schools in New England already draw the maximum talent available. With so many NCAA programs in the area there will always be a "free" lax option for the better players (I think there are something like 30 DIII programs within 2-3 hours of each other).

I think once the individual programs in the UMLL get a little further along and the HS talent starts to really kick in you could see the UMLL on level with the SELC and beyond.

[Sonny]

I read an aritcle a few years ago that said something like 80% of all high school kids that attend 4 year colleges - go to a college within 250 miles of their home.

The continued development of high school lacrosse in Minnesota & Wisconsin will feed UMLL players.

What the UMLL teams & coaches do with those talented h.s. players is a different story.

[Johnnielax13]

Gooseguy10

UMD isn't the only program that has alumni. UMD isn't the only one recruiting. There are schools with bigger student bases. It just seems to me that the competition gap continues to grow.

Do you really think the gap is growing.? I think anyone who has seen the UMLL over the past 5 years would have to argue that it is becoming more competitive. I would have to agree that this has been a one horse town for a while, but with the UMLL sending three teams to nationals, and the continued expansion of new teams and players, I have a difficult time understanding where the gap is widening. Sure UMD has defeated everyone within the UMLL for years, but I think those days are numbered. Will the always be dominate? I hope so, every team needs an evil empire to try and emulate. But will they always be able to stomp their competition and not have to worry about picking up a loss within their own league? I doubt it. Like Bob Dylan said "The times, they are a changin." Maybe it will take a few more years, but eventually kids will figure out they don't have to deal with the +400 plus inches of snow coming off the lake if they want to play for a contender.

I am hoping UMD can win out the A division at nationals, so we can have a national champ for A and B.


I think in two years from now, UMD is going to be playing a tough game to win the UMLL championship.

And I think the B division has done a great job of fostering tougher competition. Granted UST and SJU have swept the league over the past two years, but the other teams are becoming increasingly better. If you look back 5 years ago, UST and SJU were both playing worse then NDSU and UND (no offense to those fledgling teams). 6 years ago SJU won one game, and I am pretty sure it came by forfeit. Taking only 5 years to go from Zero to Hero is unbelievable, but I think both UND and NDSU are on a similar schedule. Again, I think in two years, there are going to be two more B division teams that have a chance at the UMLL championship (maybe not the NoDak teams, but I was using them as an example for the growth and expansion of the league).

[umlax32]

UMD isn't the only one recruiting.

Actually Duluth is the only one "heavily" recruiting. I know from my experience as an officer of the U of M team, the U does NOT allow club teams to recruit. And even if they did, our coach did not want to recruit kids because his philosophy was that kids should go to school FIRST for the education and SECOND for lacrosse. If the kids are on campus then yes we would recruit them for the team.

Now I know that Duluth, which technically is under the same umbella of the Minnesota education system, does not have the recruiting rule. I have heard rumors that the recruiting will have to be watched now that the high school teams are varsity.

I just hope that kids are going to school for education first and not going to a school JUST for the lacrosse team. People have to remember that this is club ball and is meant to be an extra activity outside of school. I am not saying that Duluth is a bad school....just that if you can get into the U for lets say engineering or business (which are nationally ranked), but go to Duluth instead for lacrosse, I feel that you are cutting yourself short academically. Again, Duluth is a great school I am just merely saying that kids should pick the school for academics first.

The Gophers got lucky with all of the talent they landed when they beat them a couple years ago in the UMLL championship back when Lars was coaching.

As a member of the 2005 championship team, I take offense to your comments. To say that a team got "lucky" takes away from the huge accomplishment of winning the cup. Especially when you look at the years prior to 2005. 2003 championship the U lost to Duluth by 1 goal in OT and anyone at the game would tell you that the outcome could have easily gone either way the entire game. 2004 the U (in my opinion and obviously I am biased) had a better squad than in 2005 and would have made a serious run for the cup.

[Riss]

UMD isn't the only one recruiting.

Actually Duluth is the only one "heavily" recruiting. I know from my experience as an officer of the U of M team, the U does NOT allow club teams to recruit. And even if they did, our coach did not want to recruit kids because his philosophy was that kids should go to school FIRST for the education and SECOND for lacrosse. If the kids are on campus then yes we would recruit them for the team.

Now I know that Duluth, which technically is under the same umbella of the Minnesota education system, does not have the recruiting rule. I have heard rumors that the recruiting will have to be watched now that the high school teams are varsity.

I just hope that kids are going to school for education first and not going to a school JUST for the lacrosse team. People have to remember that this is club ball and is meant to be an extra activity outside of school. I am not saying that Duluth is a bad school....just that if you can get into the U for lets say engineering or business (which are nationally ranked), but go to Duluth instead for lacrosse, I feel that you are cutting yourself short academically. Again, Duluth is a great school I am just merely saying that kids should pick the school for academics first.

The Gophers got lucky with all of the talent they landed when they beat them a couple years ago in the UMLL championship back when Lars was coaching.

As a member of the 2005 championship team, I take offense to your comments. To say that a team got "lucky" takes away from the huge accomplishment of winning the cup. Especially when you look at the years prior to 2005. 2003 championship the U lost to Duluth by 1 goal in OT and anyone at the game would tell you that the outcome could have easily gone either way the entire game. 2004 the U (in my opinion and obviously I am biased) had a better squad than in 2005 and would have made a serious run for the cup.

In fact, if you take a look at the 1st team all-conference selections for the U's championship run in 2005, none were standouts on the HS level (other than Kestler). That means we worked extremely hard to improve our game, with the understanding that we could win a UMLL championship.

I think this speaks to a greater point about college ball and success: You have to want to take a step up, and the teams that really work hard in the off season will win games. With the exception of a couple of players, being a HS star in Minnesota still doesn't mean jack. What you do with your time in college is what counts.

[Dulax31]

UMD isn't the only one recruiting.

I am not saying that Duluth is a bad school....just that if you can get into the U for lets say engineering or business (which are nationally ranked), but go to Duluth instead for lacrosse, I feel that you are cutting yourself short academically.

I had my choice between the UofM and Duluth coming out of HS and I am EXTREMELY happy I chose to go to Duluth. Duluth is a great school, that isn't in a huge city. Our Engineering programs is nationally ranked, also we have an accredited business school in the works of building a new business school. Personally I am a business major, and am in talks with working for a large CPA firm in the cities after I graduate. To disrespect my school like this when you have absolutely no basis is absolutely ridiculous. It's a great undergraduate school to go to, but I would LOVE to get my MBA at the UofM. Their graduate program is amazing.

The UofM is a great school, but it's just not for some people, lets face it, its in a cities, some people don't want to go to school in the cities. I know I wanted to get away from my parents (who live 20 minutes from campus). I am very happy with my education here at Duluth, and I DO NOT feel like I "cut myself short academically"!

Link to article about engineering program being nationally ranked.
http://www.d.umn.edu/news/2005/August/19.html

[Riss]

UMD isn't the only one recruiting.

I am not saying that Duluth is a bad school....just that if you can get into the U for lets say engineering or business (which are nationally ranked), but go to Duluth instead for lacrosse, I feel that you are cutting yourself short academically.

I had my choice between the UofM and Duluth coming out of HS and I am EXTREMELY happy I chose to go to Duluth. Duluth is a great school, that isn't in a huge city. Our Engineering programs is nationally ranked, also we have an acredited business school in the works of building a new business school. Personally I am a business major, and am in talks with working for a large CPA firm in the cities after I graduate. To distrespect my school like this when you have absolutely no basis is absolutely rididculous. It's a great undergraduate school to go to, but I would LOVE to get my MBA at the UofM. Their graduate program is amazing.

The UofM is a great school, but it's just not for some people, lets face it, its in a cities, some people don't want to go to school in the cities. I know I wanted to get away from my parents (who live 20 minutes from campus). I am very happy with my education here at duluth, and I DO NOT feel like I "cut myself short academically"!

The point isnt that Duluth is a bad school, you get a solid education there. Fleck, you chose between the two schools because of a variety of factors and made the right decision for you. The U is a superior school academically, in terms of ranking, quality of student it attracts, etc., this really isnt a point of contention. Obviously, people decide on where to go college based on a lot of things, like not wanting to be a big city.

The problem is when a kid goes somewhere just to play lacrosse. He sells his college experience short. Or perhaps he really shouldnt be in college at all and he goes to a certain school then fails out (not a hypothetical).

[anklebreaker]

I went to CSU only to play lacrosse and ended up falling in love with it. I was lucky! I think that some kids absolutely choose a school for lax. Is this right?? Maybe but some kids are definitely not failing out because of lax. They are failing out because the are not doing their work and going to class. The number one factor for deciding if a student graduates college is their attendance in class. UMD lacrosse team has rules about academic standards and players have to fulfill these standards or they don't play. Coach Graff stresses 1) academics, 2) FAMILY, 3) Lacrosse, so many of the kids may come to Duluth to play lax but their are definitely there to get an education first!

[umlax32]

Fleck, I did not mean any disrepect to your school. As I stated in my post, "Duluth is NOT a bad school." My point was exactly with Riss is talking about...that kids should not go to school JUST for lacrosse. I am happy to hear that you enjoyed your time at Duluth and are in the process of getting a great job in the cities. Congrats!

Not to add fuel to the fire, but you said the Duluth engineering program is nationally ranked....according to US News, they are not in the top 50 when the U is 23rd. Again not trying to start an arguement, rather just supporting my previous post.

There are obvious reasons for choosing a school and there are lots that do not deal with academics (freinds, location, city life, etc). My point was that you are paying a lot of money to go to school so I hope that is the first priority when choosing a school.

Sorry if you thought I was disrepecting your school.[/quote]

[Mr. Jefferson]

Why is it always the haves and the have nots...we always here the same arguement...the U IS A MUCH BETTER SCHOOL, AND UMD IS NOT....

What a load of garbage.. quit find excuses for not fielding a team as competitive....

Duluth does have minumim team GPA correct? How many UMD players have went on to grad school, law school, med school, etc...this is all irrlevant...

There are no recruiting guidlelines for HS vs. Club...know what you are talking about .."rumors" are just that "rumors"

I know players that go to UMD for the positive leadership displayed by the coaching staff, and the morals that instil into their players. How do does the rest of the UMLL really know what is going on up championship drive? (I-35n for two hours for those of you needing directions) Who here actually has sat in on team meeting and know how they stress the importance of academics prior to the ever stepping on the field...

Quit using the story the U is a better school than UMD, and they recruit just to get kids to play...

10 Championships speak for themselves...

[gobblerlax05]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sagPXU3aO7E

[Dulax31]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but you said the Duluth engineering program is nationally ranked....according to US News, they are not in the top 50 when the U is 23rd. Again not trying to start an arguement, rather just supporting my previous post.

Here is the link to the article:
http://www.d.umn.edu/news/2005/August/19.html

[umlax32]

Touche Fleck, Touche! I did not realize that there are different rankings (non-doctoral schools vs. doctoral). I was also looking at the rankings for graduate programs.

I was hoping my comments would not get this thread out of hand, which is obviously has. I shoud not have used the U and UMD as examples. Instead I should have used an ivy league school like Yale. Like I have stated many times my point was merely that kids should go to school for school first. If a kid gets into Yale but chooses University of Central Florida (there I hope nobody has connections to that school) just to play lacrosse, I feel that he has cut himself short. By NO MEANS am I saying this is what kids that go to Duluth do. I also know that Duluth runs a great program and I know Graf stresses academics, which is great!

What a load of garbage.. quit find excuses for not fielding a team as competitive....

I do not know where in my posts you are seeing these so called "excuses" being made. Also those "rumors" I have been hearing are coming from numerous high school coaches who were involved in the process of getting the teams varsity status. Maybe they aren't correct, which is why I used the term "rumors."

[Riss]

Why is it always the haves and the have nots...we always here the same arguement...the U IS A MUCH BETTER SCHOOL, AND UMD IS NOT....

What a load of garbage.. quit find excuses for not fielding a team as competitive....

Duluth does have minumim team GPA correct? How many UMD players have went on to grad school, law school, med school, etc...this is all irrlevant...

There are no recruiting guidlelines for HS vs. Club...know what you are talking about .."rumors" are just that "rumors"

I know players that go to UMD for the positive leadership displayed by the coaching staff, and the morals that instil into their players. How do does the rest of the UMLL really know what is going on up championship drive? (I-35n for two hours for those of you needing directions) Who here actually has sat in on team meeting and know how they stress the importance of academics prior to the ever stepping on the field...

Quit using the story the U is a better school than UMD, and they recruit just to get kids to play...

10 Championships speak for themselves...

No one is using it as an excuse. UMD is winning because of a great program, which means great coaching, and yes recruiting. UMD recruits, UofM does not and is not allowed to. There are no rumors there. Winners also bring in winners, so its not like they have to brainwash kids to come there. However, some of the people posting on this forum are saying that maybe going to college just play club lax isn't always in the best interest of the kid.

I think we are beating a dead-horse here, so I'll make this my last post.

[Gooseguy10]

A couple of things here. First, this thread is not about who has a better school. Classify that under the topic forum....pointless argument. (see sub heading "my dad can beat up your dad") Second, I never said the "U was lucky to win...." that was someone else, so please don't group me with that person in a post. Third, UMD's lacrosse graduation rate is extremely high. What does that tell me? The ones not cutting the team standards get dropped....regardless of how good they are. I could give a list of names that fall into this category. Another side of this is, how many people graduated college because of the lacrosse team. Meaning, without the lacrosse team, these guys wouldn't have made it through. Again, I could provide a list. So going to school to play lacrosse might not be the worst thing. Especially for kids who would be on the bubble of not going to college at all.

Someone asked if I really think the gap is getting bigger. Yes I do. They mentioned that three teams are going to nationals. That is with two divisions....I really don't want to get into the A/B debate here. The fact remains that UMD is heads above everyone else in terms of talent both A and B. My original question is why this is happening. People keep talking about how the rise of lacrosse in MN will take care of that gap. But UMD is drawing from the same pool.

Recruiting. I do not think that Graf forces anyone to come to UMD. He simply offers a good lacrosse program and a good school. Graf doesn't make kids drink the kool-aid, it's the winning that is attractive.

The U not being able to recruit is interesting. Can your alumni contact kids? Can U of M alumni who are coaches steer kids towards looking at the U? Recruiting doesn't always mean official visits by coaches.

It takes more than recruiting and more than a talented pool of players. Maybe teams should start looking at how UMD (and SJU and UST) opperate?

Finally, Art Ayers was not coaching games for the 2000 Mankato team. In fact he was not on the sideline of ANY Mankato vs UMD games during the 1998, 1999, 2000, or 2001 years.