2007 PNCLL All-Stars

[tiki monster]

Let's keep some numbers in mind...

Oregon-4 top ten PNCLL scorers (keep in mind no other team in the league had a schedule NEARLY as difficult as theirs)

Best Goalie in the League: Paul Swanson 172 saves with a .612 save%

Best Face-off middie in the league: Scott 'turtle' Miller...he is literally unstoppable

Best Goals-allowed on average per game (in pncll)
Oregon 6.3 ga
sfu 9.8
uw 14.16
osu 10.8
bsu 16 as of today
GU 14.4 as of today
UI 20.4 as of today
NOT to mention they have only had ten or more goals scored on them TWICE all year! that's impressive stuff. they easily have the best defense.

It would be a crime to not have the ducks starting line (at the very least) filling up the majority of the 1st and 2nd team spots.

[Laxfan87]

Oregon may have 4 of the top 10 Point Producers, but they only have 3 in the Top 20 for Points Per Game.

Yes they had the hardest schedule, but if people really want to get nit picky, then do a point breakdown on a game by game basis to see what teams they got more of their points against...which could be quite tedious.

Anyway, point consideration should be based off PPG rather then Total Points in my opinion, but again....that's just my opinion.

[Kyle Berggren]

PPG is a better measure than total points to compare players, but at the level we're talking about ppg doesn't mean a lot. If Coffman played for UPS, he'd probably average about 10 ppg, maybe more. For a team like Oregon his numbers go down, we've got to find the best players at their positions. Just because you're the best player on your team doesn't mean you're a first team PNCLL player or a first team All-American. A goalie that lets in 30 goals per game could be the best goalie in the conference, but he's got no support on defense.

[Laxfan87]

PPG is a better measure than total points to compare players, but at the level we're talking about ppg doesn't mean a lot. If Coffman played for UPS, he'd probably average about 10 ppg, maybe more. For a team like Oregon his numbers go down, we've got to find the best players at their positions. Just because you're the best player on your team doesn't mean you're a first team PNCLL player or a first team All-American. A goalie that lets in 30 goals per game could be the best goalie in the conference, but he's got no support on defense.

Definitely,

I wasn't trying to imply that PPG is the be all to end all. I was just saying that when it does come to the consideration of points(whether it be a small component, moderate or large part of the decision making), it should be measured on a PPG basis and not a total.

There is more to it then just points of course.

[Scrape Mode]

Attack
Coffman (Oregon) - MVP
Knope (Oregon)
Christians (SFU)

Middie
(line 1 for Oregon is the most talented in the league, straight up)
Warren (Oregon) - MVP
Tesar (Oregon)
Sunshine (Oregon)

Specialist
Miller "Turtle" (Oregon)

Defense
Jolly (Oregon) - MVP
Carpenter (Oregon State)
Vincent (Oregon)

Goal
Swanson (Oregon)

Way to go out on a limb with your picks. Why don't we just send the all-star jerseys to the entire Oregon squad so you guys can stop wasting everyone's time with your "picks."

The difference between Oregon players/alums and everyone else in the PNCLL is that at least everyone else makes an effort to be objective when it comes to discussions like this one. Yes, Oregon is extremely talented in many respects, but to say that 9 out of 11 guys on the PNCLL all-star team all come from Oregon is to give short shrift to the excellent players who play for other teams. Personally, I find it to be disrespectful.

I don't know all the players out there who deserve to be named all-stars this year, but I'm pretty sure 85% of them don't come from U of O.

Laxer- You are from Whitman, right? So you have seen or played in only a handful of A division games, ever. I have started against every team in the PNCLL A division for the last 4 years so I think I have a pretty good understanding of what each team has to offer. In past years, I have not loaded my first team predictions with all Oregon players. There have been plenty of great players on other teams in the past that I thought were better then the players on my team. This year, that is not the case. You are entitled to your picks and I am entitled to mine. Is it necessary for you to come on here and put down Oregon players/alums?! Do you see me making predictions on any B division stuff, no. I stay to what I know, and I suggest you do the same. And don't forget my MVP picks.

[laxer818]

Laxer- You are from Whitman, right? So you have seen or played in only a handful of A division games, ever. I have started against every team in the PNCLL A division for the last 4 years so I think I have a pretty good understanding of what each team has to offer. In past years, I have not loaded my first team predictions with all Oregon players. There have been plenty of great players on other teams in the past that I thought were better then the players on my team. This year, that is not the case. You are entitled to your picks and I am entitled to mine. Is it necessary for you to come on here and put down Oregon players/alums?! Do you see me making predictions on any B division stuff, no. I stay to what I know, and I suggest you do the same. And don't forget my MVP picks.

Scrape- First of all, I played PNCLL A for 4 years myself, so check your facts before making erroneous claims that make you look uninformed.

Second, the point of my previous post was that, for you to come on this website and, in essence, say "Oregon's players are the best, and there are a couple of other good players in the league, and that's it" is disrespectful, and makes you look like an a--hole. I'm sure that there are at least a handful of players on other teams in the league, including players on SFU and OSU other than the ones you mentioned, who are as good as some of the Oregon players, or at least as deserving of a spot on the all-star roster. You, however, just disregard these players. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but if, in expressing that opinion, you come off sounding disrespectful and arrogant, then don't be surprised if someone calls you out on it.

In sticking to "what you know," I suggest you not be a d---. That is all.

[TheNino57]

I feel that many are overlooking the fact that when teams do very well for themselves, often it is because they play well as a team- good, solid, selfless, teamwork. We need to be mindful of this fact. Some teams match up better against certain opponents and have big games. Some players often look better on certain teams because they have team mates or line mates around them that help make them look a lot better. Also, (I'll stick with offense as I am an offensive player) having three or four solid offensive players makes things very difficult for a team defensively- you can shut down one or two players, hopefully, but then other players are going to step up and cause some matchup problems.

Is it really fair to say that one player is better than another very talented player because of which team he plays for? On some developing teams, stars are harder to see. They won't stand out as much because they might not have as much help. Willamette's netminder had an amazing game against us. I don't feel like he got lucky- he plays solid. However, if you never played against Willamette, judging solely on numbers, he won't look that great. See what I am getting at? You have to be able to differentiate good players who play on great teams from great players who play on teams that aren't so great.

[NCInDaPlaceTaBe]

"I'm sure that there are at least a handful of players on other teams in the league, including players on SFU and OSU other than the ones you mentioned, who are as good as some of the Oregon players, or at least as deserving of a spot on the all-star roster."

This is the real problem, and where I think this wonderful argument is coming from. Laxer clearly points out two different ways to judge who is and isn't an all-star.

One. there are players that are just darn good lacrosse players and deserve to be all stars.

Two. There are players that may not be the most noticeable on the field but they are deserving of a spot because of what they do for their team.

This is something I have always been curious about in our league, just how do we define our all-stars. Is it raw lacrosse talent? Sportsmanship? Leadership? Hustle?

If you go with the first option, anyone who has seen both PNCLL games and the top national competition clearly knows that this year, UO deserves most of the 1st team spots. The exceptions definitely belong to Carpenter and Christians.

If you go with the second option, that is where you will see a little more diversity. Keep Carpenter move Christians to midfield (I hear that's what he's been playing in the ladder half of the season). Throw in Sonkin at Attack, he's been either first or second in points on his team during all his PNCLL games. Add that senior from BSU Misner to the list, and definitely put some consideration into Clayton from OSU. Sorry guys, but as far as defense goes, I don't think it's going to change.

Here are your two all-star lists:

Pure Lacrosse Talent

Attack:
Coffman (Offensive MVP)
Christians
Knope

Midfield:
Warren
Tesar
Aldrich

Defense:
Jolly
Carpenter
Vincent (Defensive MVP)

Goalie:
Swanson

Specialist: Miller (League MVP) (Possible National MVP?...)
-------------
All-Around All-Stars

Attack:
Coffman
Sonkin
Misner
Clayton

Midfield:
Warren
Christians
Tesar

Defense:
Jolly
Carpenter
Vincent

Specialist:
Miller

So I think the question now is how do the voters balance the two? Do they balance the two? And what attributes do they value in our conference?

[nhoskins]

Anyone know if there are archives of past league all-stars?

I have a hard time giving UO the entire league first team all-star awards if that SFU team from 1999 didn't get all the league all-star awards back then. Anyone think any of this year's UO team will play pro (like Martin, Yuen, Morgan, ? Or play for their country (like Martin)?

UO isn't the first team to have success at the National level, nor the first to sweep their conference. I've seen them play, as well as OSU, SFU, Gonzaga and BSU this year, and while a great team and representing the conference well at the national level, they're certainly not the only source of great players in the league.

That being said, I think BSU's Shawn Carman is really flying under the radar as a great goalie.

[nhoskins]

This is the real problem, and where I think this wonderful argument is coming from. Laxer clearly points out two different ways to judge who is and isn't an all-star.

One. there are players that are just darn good lacrosse players and deserve to be all stars.

Two. There are players that may not be the most noticeable on the field but they are deserving of a spot because of what they do for their team.

This is something I have always been curious about in our league, just how do we define our all-stars. Is it raw lacrosse talent? Sportsmanship? Leadership? Hustle?

A team's MVP is probably that player that, when absent, hurts the team the most. In that sense, I think UO would really suffer without Turtle at the X, whereas Coffman missing would affect their game a lot less. Watching Gonzaga reminds me that when Kladis played, Gonzaga was a totally different team if you removed him from the game. Is that an MVP?

[Get_Some]

Not to be disrespectful here or anything, but I think that if you are going to go off of ppg for all-star voting, you will have to work out a mathematical equation to make it fair for Oregon players. Now now, I know that probably ruffled a few feathers there, but if you multiply every goal or assist that an Oregon player gets by 2.66667 that would be equal to him being able to play the entire game, which they would on any other team in the league. That being said, Oregon's starters and rest of the team, there are over 40, are lucky, and i mean LUCKY if Joe lets them play more than a quarter and a half in PNCLL games whereas Christians, Sonkin, Tipton, Carpenter get to play the whole game and will sometimes get over 10 points, well not Carp but he still makes people look stupid the whole game. Oregon players don't have that opportunity with the depth of their team to play the entire game and if all of there starters did play the whole game, they would win by at least 30 goals a game, again no offense. But that wouldn't be too classy nor very much fun for the other team so they get 15-20 minutes to try to do what others can do the duration of the game.

Also, you probably see the oregon players/alum on here favoring their school with the all-star roster, but you have to realize that they are looking at if from the side of the most points scored on them by a single player in a PNCLL game was 3. And that happened only 4-5 times this year. Now, in the same games Oregon had 3.33 players with atleast 3 points. However, instituting my proposed equation Oregon would have 7.16667 players with atleast 3-4 ppg. So that number alone fills the 6 offensive spots and that leaves the defense and goalie to speak for themselves, which they did this year. Paul was number one in league, so he gets first team. No brainer on Turtle being the faceoff specialist.

Brett Retallick deserves some mention too.

[TheNino57]

wow.

[nhoskins]

Now, in the same games Oregon had 3.33 players with atleast 3 points. However, instituting my proposed equation Oregon would have 7.16667 players with atleast 3-4 ppg.

So who gets the other .83333 of an allstar award? And does .16667 guy get a full jersey? Or maybe just sleeve.

[Scrape Mode]

Laxer- You are from Whitman, right? So you have seen or played in only a handful of A division games, ever. I have started against every team in the PNCLL A division for the last 4 years so I think I have a pretty good understanding of what each team has to offer. In past years, I have not loaded my first team predictions with all Oregon players. There have been plenty of great players on other teams in the past that I thought were better then the players on my team. This year, that is not the case. You are entitled to your picks and I am entitled to mine. Is it necessary for you to come on here and put down Oregon players/alums?! Do you see me making predictions on any B division stuff, no. I stay to what I know, and I suggest you do the same. And don't forget my MVP picks.

Scrape- First of all, I played PNCLL A for 4 years myself, so check your facts before making erroneous claims that make you look uninformed.

Second, the point of my previous post was that, for you to come on this website and, in essence, say "Oregon's players are the best, and there are a couple of other good players in the league, and that's it" is disrespectful, and makes you look like an a--hole. I'm sure that there are at least a handful of players on other teams in the league, including players on SFU and OSU other than the ones you mentioned, who are as good as some of the Oregon players, or at least as deserving of a spot on the all-star roster. You, however, just disregard these players. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but if, in expressing that opinion, you come off sounding disrespectful and arrogant, then don't be surprised if someone calls you out on it.

In sticking to "what you know," I suggest you not be a d---. That is all.

laxer- You are right, there are plenty of good players around the league. Everyone who plays in the PNCLL is talented. There is someone on every team in the league who deserves an all-star vote. If I had included this in my first post would it have made it ok then?
I wasn't trying to disregard any players with my picks. I was simply listing who I thought deserved 1st team selections (based on their performances this year, on the field). If I were to come up with a second team and honorable mention, then a lot more names would show up from teams other than Oregon. I could list every team in the PNCLL and name a handful of players on each team that really impressed me this year with their play. That way, people reading these forums could feel better and put on a happy face

[KrazyKyle]

Let's all just get together and draw straws. The 11 longest straws are first team, and so on. If you get the really long straw......Happy MVP.

On a serious note though.

all-star /ˈɔlˌstɑr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[awl-stahr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. consisting of athletes chosen as the best at their positions from all teams in a league or region:

Example: Our quarterback was chosen for the all-star team.

I guess the only word that we have to decide the meaning of is "best". What constitutes the best players? It's always tough to make up an "all -league" or "all-star" team. We can't just assume that the best team in the league has all of the best players. It's a good assumption to think so, but it is not always true. When you have talent around you, you look like a better player. It is very tough to "stand out" when you don't have the talent around you to help. Oregon has the advantage of having guys that are all on the same page and working together to obtain wins. To say that all of Oregon's starters are the best in the league wouldn't be fair to the other teams. If you throw in players from around the league into Oregon's starting line-up, I'm sure they would produce. We'll never have to opportunity to see this, but it would definetly be interesting. Just over here livin' the dream. That's my two cents.