PCLL Re-alignment????

[Dan Warren]

The way I look at it, I would rather play for a competitive "B" team than an "A" team that loses on a regular basis. Where is the attraction in playing for a losing team???? In choosing a school to play for I think more individuals would look at record and not whether a team is labeled Div. A or Div. B. If they didn't their priorities would be pretty messed up.

By the way, BSC just got beat 13-6 by Div. B Salem State. What does that tell ya????

That tells me that the team sucks this year...but just because you have a bad team doesn't mean you should be thrown out of your division, that is not how it works. I was most definitely not saying someone should choose a school just because of the teams they play, but more for the opportunity to play those teams and WIN. There is a huge difference. Why would you assume that once you went to said school, you would still be losing? All depends on the incoming class, who you get to play for you.

BSC is no doubt a really bad team right now, but the opportunity to get kids is there.

[LaxZac02]

I could have sworn you had said that the only talent in division B was talent that developed there. Correct me if I'm wrong. B teams farm good players just as A teams do. Maybe not as many becuase they don't have schools with 20,000 kids at them but they do farm some. I went to Umass Dartmouth before, but did not play. If i'm correct, they are 0-2 in their division and merely 4-4. Why would you recomend a kid go there rather than a division B school that gets invited to national tournies and travels to other states to play games. Once again, sounds like a bias. The entire point of this is that it would benifit the entire league and everyone in it if there was a sort of revamp. Once both of our divisions are much more legitimized great players will want to play club for both PCLL A and B becuase we will have great competition and teams that get nationally ranked every year. That sounds like its in the best interest for everyone.

[Dan Warren]

that is one of the best posts in this thread. Maybe you are right. I don't think I said that NO talent would go there, but maybe I did. What I meant was that you wouldn't get a kid to pick a B school over a varsity school. Why U Mass D over a B team that travels, etc? Maybe just so you don't have to do crazy amounts of fundraising, or pay dues to play, etc? People still think of club as no practice, drinking beers on the sidelines. I hate that, and I defend club ball all the time. I tell my players about MCLA games and teams all the time. But like I said, I just want BSC to stay at the A level. I feel like if they go to B, they will never come back, and would hate to see that.

[More Cowbell]

I don't think that kids would want to go there to play when they could go play D3 down the road at U Mass Dartmouth, or any other of the 18+ D3 schools in Mass, or the numerous Varsity programs across New England.

Honestly, I don't think division A or B would make much of a difference in a kid's decision. As much as the MCLA has grown, it is still seen by most High school kids in the Northeast as a club league. If a kid seriously wants to play in college and is being courted by DII and DIII schools, he will most likely look at MCLA lacrosse in general as a step down (Now I'm not saying that this will always be the case, or that it is the case everywhere, but I feel that right now in the Northeast, that is the reality). If he decides to go to the MCLA school, the decision will probably be made based on the school rather than on the lacrosse team.

I mean, I for one am not fooling myself thinking that we (BC) are really luring kids away from varsity lacrosse based on our national schedule and opportunities to play big name schools. We get a lot of kids from the Northeast that had an opportunity to play varsity elsewhere, but chose BC because they liked the school, weren't looking for a DIII level commitment...whatever.

In my opinion, a kid who is considering, say, UMass Dartmouth and BSC is not going to choose BSC for their lacrosse, regardless of their division. If he chooses BSC, it will probably be for other reasons, and his ability to play lacrosse there would be an added bonus. Playing in the B division where he can consistently be on a competitive team would be a further bonus.

[Nik]

Whats the overall consensus amongst the current BSC, WPI, UCGA, and SC players? On average, are they for or against changing divisions?

[Daniel Morris]

Let's keep the talk civil boys. No one is forcing anyone to move divisions, and that would never happen anyway. Some teams may want to consider a move, but I understand if they don't as well.

Dan W., I hear what you are saying about recruiting talent, it may be more difficult with a B schedule, but some of these schools aren't actively recruiting talent anyway. They get the players who try out because they went to the school for academics or a certain program or whatever. In that case, Div B may be a better opportunity.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. It is just something to think about as the gaps between some teams continue to widen.

[SCLAX]

Being a part of the PCLL for 6 years now, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the way the league has been developing. I played for a middle-of-the-pack Stonehill team in 2002, losing a bunch of games (something like 11-2 to a powerhouse URI) but beating UConn and a very solid BSC team in 2OT. We lost in the first round of the playoffs that year but we were there. In '03, '04, and '05 we made the playoffs every year and even made it to the semis in '04 (lost a tight game to UNH). For a small school we had a great talent pool and played very competitive lacrosse.
After graduating 16 seniors in '05 Stonehill has been struggling but there's nothing to say we can't be back in it in the years to come.
I've seen teams soar (BSC, URI, UConn, NU) and I've seen teams struggle (BSC, URI, SC, USCGA, even NU relative to where they are now). The only teams I never beat as a player were UNH and BC.
This is what I'm getting at: I don't think it's necessary to relegate or persuade a team to "drop" to Div B just because they're slumping. Teams have off years -- that's just how it is.
That being said, I'm still not completely against having a school of 2,500 students compete with teams of comparable size. So long as the competition is there I don't have a big problem with it. SC travelled south this year and beat the #8 ranked B team in the country. It goes without saying that SC could be very successful in the national tournament were they to make the switch. I feel that this, coupled with SC's highly regarded academic reputation, could/would attract quality players.
It's definitely something for smaller schools to consider.

And Dan, a big part of me agrees with you. As a player, would I have wanted to play a PCLL Div B schedule? No. Would I have wanted to play a bunch of competitive OOC B games and likely go to the national tournament? Yes, I think so.

[Hi-Line Lax]

Sorry, I hardly read these posts and haven't really gone through all the discussion here, but I just wanted to comment on New England players not wanting to go play Div B club ball... because I haven't found that to be the case at all. In the past 3 years here at Montana (in the middle of nowhere as far as lacrosse is concerned) we have had players transfer from Dickinson, Connecticut College, Hartwick, Ohio Wesleyan, Virginia Wesleyan, Oneota State, and Bellarmine because they didn't enjoy their freshman experience in "competitive lacrosse" and heard good things from their friends in club ball, that's in addition to the dozen or so other guys that could have gone somewhere east and chose not to... so it does happen.

[LaxTV_Admin]

I didn't get to read through all the posts but read through many of them. The UMLL did a "re-alignment" a few years back. There is a good discussion on it in the UMLL forum. The topic is "UWSP not playing Out of Conference Games." I think the discussion begins on page 2 about some of the A teams being dropped to B division.

It may give you some insights on coaches and players who have already been through this and their thoughts on the topic. Just a different perspective. Good luck as this is a tough decision for a conference to make.

[Stonehillcoach]

I agree with SCLAX and Tom Duggan. I've been a player and a coach in this league since the start of it. In the past a teams record depended more so on if they were organized and received support from school. As the league becomes larger and more organized a teams record depends less on that and more on their pool of players.

I've been politely asked for 3 years now to move down and it's never even crossed my mind as an option until this year. Teams like NU and BC have 30 to 50 freshman coming in a year with cuts. Stonehill brings in 5 to 6 freshman a year. Last year was the first year in 5 that we didn't make the playoffs.

I think it really comes down to what the players (especially underclassmen) on my team want to do as they will be the ones playing for the next few seasons.

Dan Warren, we'll see you at Battle for 24 cup game. Should be a good one.

[PSLguy]

I think it really comes down to what the players (especially underclassmen) on my team want to do as they will be the ones playing for the next few seasons.

I feel like that's the first reaction we've had on the board from a current stakeholder. Honestly, where is the reaction from players/coaches at the other schools (CG,BSC) that keep getting mentioned regarding realignment? As it was stated earlier it would be good to hear their perspective. I'm not sure where the discussion can go without more input from that side of the matter. A majority of the people on here seem to think some sort of realignment is in order. A few people are against it but from what I can tell they are not currently associated with the schools in question.

It's as simple as this: Blowouts between PCLL teams are bad for the league. This fact is born out if only by looking at the MCLA score board and see UCSB trounces some school from California you never heard of... you just assume they are a crap team and give it no notice. A handful of teams are getting pelted every week playing in PCLL-A. This leaves these teams with little to play for except love of the game. If that's all that is realistically at stake for these teams moving them to B where they can realisitically compete for both league and national competitition is adding to the experience.

Consider the RMLC, their B ranks are burgeoning yet they still maintain a small A division even though it means not having an automatic bid. Look how many teams are either in the top 25B or are getting votes. None of those teams would even make the RMLC A playoffs let alone match up. In the meantime over the years Utah has gone from also ran in the RMLC-A to another solid top 25A school. Not saying the situation is exactly the same, but there are similarities (also not saying the PCLL should contract to a point where there is no auto-bid as despite strong teams there still just isnt' enough respect at the polls)

[Ben Clark]

I feel like that's the first reaction we've had on the board from a current stakeholder. Honestly, where is the reaction from players/coaches at the other schools (CG,BSC) that keep getting mentioned regarding realignment? As it was stated earlier it would be good to hear their perspective. I'm not sure where the discussion can go without more input from that side of the matter. A majority of the people on here seem to think some sort of realignment is in order. A few people are against it but from what I can tell they are not currently associated with the schools in question.

I guess I should have made clear the fact that I'm the head coach at WPI. I responded earlier in the thread.

My main message is this: We (the smaller schools) don't need anyone to evaluate our positions for us. It's annoying. We know what is at stake, and we are constantly trying to do what is best for our team, even if that means moving down to division B.

I don't know if you guys think we're all sitting around together with our arms crossed in defiance or what, but every year I take a close look at my team and decide where to go from there.

I honestly have nothing civil left to say. Just please stop acting like you need to help us make a decision.

Consider the RMLC

And dude, don't even try to compare the PCLL to the RMLC. The RMLC has four teams who are regularly in the top 10. This year is the first year the PCLL has ever had a team in the top 10. Different story. We are not ready to model ourselves after the RMLC.

[More Cowbell]

This year is the first year the PCLL has ever had a team in the top 10.

BC was #9 for a while 2 seasons ago.

http://www.collegelax.us/polls.php?action=fullnews&id=112

[Ben Clark]

This year is the first year the PCLL has ever had a team in the top 10.

BC was #9 for a while 2 seasons ago.

http://www.collegelax.us/polls.php?action=fullnews&id=112

Oh, I remember that now. I stand corrected.

[PSLguy]

And dude, don't even try to compare the PCLL to the RMLC. The RMLC has four teams who are regularly in the top 10. This year is the first year the PCLL has ever had a team in the top 10. Different story. We are not ready to model ourselves after the RMLC.

My comparisin was focused on the competitiveness of their B division, not that relignment would suddenly vault BC, NU, UNH and UConn into the top 10.

No one is trying to specifically coddle the weaker teams in the league or shield them from unpleasant blowouts. It hasn't been said this bluntly yet but realignment is as much about people wanting weaker schools out of PCLL A as is trying to give the same schools a better experience in B. The fact that the structure exists in PCLL-B to accomodate and provide an equal if not better experience for these teams simply makes it a mutually beneficial (in some people's POV) argument.

Just please stop acting like you need to help us make a decision

From the start this topic has been about throwing ideas around. No one is going to be forced to move down and the discussion here is not meant to continue ad nausiam until one of the schools relents and chooses to drop down. I understand that the issue is personal especially for the specific schools being mentioned but the fact that there are strong feelings on both sides doesn't mean it can't be discussed as long as people want to.