PCLL Re-alignment????

[Dan Warren]

for example. I coach HS lacrosse. If a kid that was a mid-level D3 player asked me about colleges to play at that were close to home, I would NEVER recommend a Div B PCLL team. Sorry, wouldn't do it. I would tell him to look at Umass Dartmouth, Endicott, Eastern Conn, Curry, NEC, WNEC, Babson, etc. I would also say that there is great opportunity to play some top level lacrosse at the club level for teams like NU, BU, BC, UNH, URI. I would tell him about the opportunity to play a colorful schedule against big name colleges and universities across the US. I would tell him that these teams have programs that mirror D3 teams in the way they are run, and in talent. And that in a lot of cases, they have more talent than lower level D3 teams, and some more than the upper level. What would I say for the PCLL B?

If you have a choice between a small time D3 Varsity team that is funded by the school with little of no fundraising, and that is fully supported by it's institution, or a PCLL A team that has to fundraise but travels to CA or CO, or FLA to play teams like Florida State, Michigan,Colorado State or any number of teams like that, or to go play at a PCLL B team? Well, you know who is last choice.

[LaxZac02]

PCLL A team that has to fundraise but travels to CA or CO, or FLA to play teams like Florida State, Michigan,Colorado State or any number of teams like that, or to go play at a PCLL B team? Well, you know who is last choice.

How many PCLL A teams travelled this spring? I know of at least one PCLL B team that travelled. I think what your not realizing and what has been said is that although PCLL B might not be the strongest B league around, all over the Country division B is much stronger. If the A teams were to be bumped down to B becuase they either
A. Could not compete with the upper A teams
B. Had a small school size
It would bring alot more legitimacy to the PCLL B division. What I'm hearing is that B can and will never be anything worth going to if you have any sort of lacrosse skill whatsoever. I think that is absolute crap, and if you actually looked at the division B teams around the country (and its not that hard to schedual a few games out of state for a spring break trip) you'll see that there is alot of competition in the B leagues. Just becuase you have an obvious bias towards the entire B league doesnt mean that every high school coach shares it.

[keefebsc]

I think the bigger picture needs to be looked at here.

Sure the smaller teams will be able to hang with the larger schools some seasons but if you want to build a winning program one should be focusedon have consistancy within said program. If the smaller schools could offer recruits the chance to play for a program that always goes to the playoffs every year who is to say that might influence some better players to look into going to a smaller school.

Not sure how long you have been a part of the PCLL Pokecheck, but Pre- Tim Gray, NU name would be lumped in with all this Div B. talk. NU was not nearly the team it is now.

As for BSC/WPI/SC going Div B. or all this top 6 team nonsence, I can guarentee none of these teams would travel any more than they are now. Sending 3 teams down a division makes no sense for the bigger programs. They have the potential to play every team twice...That 10 league games...Let say the field is so even (never happens) and everyone beats each other. Not going to lie, 5-5 league record will not get an at large bid in the tourney. Big teams need the little teams to help their stats...

[PSLguy]

I should have mentioned this from the start but I will do so now. The idea behind the relegation system wasn't to single out BSC. I know that BSC has fielded very competitive teams in the past. But to what extent should pedigree play a role? I personally think performance should always be the primary indicator, regardless of the team and its history. They are simply one of the teams (along with Coast Guard- PCLL champ a long while back) who are down this year and under that framework would be in the relegation zone. Several years ago it would have been URI in that same position. And again relegation would only last as long as it took a team to regain promotion. It would also not preclude a team from scheduling A division teams. In my first post on this subject I also submitted the caveat that it was still unclear if the top B programs (at least in the PCLL) would be sufficiently talented to match up with the weakest A programs (nationwide this trend has obviously been confirmed). If not of course the change would not enhance competition at all.

Understandably no team would want to be relegated. However, on the other side of things this system would attempt to maintain the strongest group of teams possible for the A division. Outside of the pride of whatever team is on the block I think the system could benefit the league as a whole. The system need not always relegate a team... A playoff game could be used between the two teams in question thus in the end a team would always be in charge of it's own destiny. If the A team won it would not be relegated.

It's been stated and reiterated that no one is forced to play in either division under the leagues rules, a standard that is unlikely to be changed. I'm not trying to sell this idea as the new direction for the PCLL. There has simply been a lot of discussion about the two divisions since the split and this was meant to be a new perspective.

[Dan Warren]

I hear you PSLguy. I know you aren't singling them out, and that you are just throwing this idea out there. I didn't take any offense, I am just passionate about this topic.

What I'm hearing is that B can and will never be anything worth going to if you have any sort of lacrosse skill whatsoever.

you are hearing right. Maybe not in CA where there are only about 3 NCAA teams, but in Mass that is dead on. There are 18 D3 schools for lax in Mass, and many more across NE.

[Dan Warren]

for the record LaxZac02, I am not attacking the PCLL B or B division, I am just calling it like I see it. I have been around this game a long time, and coached at all different levels. I am telling you that Div B teams are not going to get the good players from MA. It is not going to happen. No HS coach in his right mind would EVER recommend a PCLL B team for a decent player. He would, however, possibly recommend an A team because of the opportunity to play the big name, high profile schools. HS kids love seeing those schedules. We had a recruit once at BSC in 2003. He came down for a visit, loved the school, loved the team, but his number one reason for wanting to come was that we had BC, BU, UNH, Northeastern, URI as divisional opponents, and that we had Tennessee and Virginia Tech as OOC games. He was ready to come, but in the end his SAT's didn't get him in, Herkimer swooped in, and he is now a senior at Limestone D2, and is pretty freaking nasty. Bad luck for us, but if the kid scored a little higher on his SAT's he would have been playing for BSC, and that would have been largely attributed to the A level schedule. Tell me he would have wanted to come if our schedule only had Framingham State, Salem, New Haven, etc? Not to knock those schools, but we would not have had a shot.

[pokecheck]

Not sure how long you have been a part of the PCLL Pokecheck, but Pre- Tim Gray, NU name would be lumped in with all this Div B. talk. NU was not nearly the team it is now.

As for BSC/WPI/SC going Div B. or all this top 6 team nonsence, I can guarentee none of these teams would travel any more than they are now. Sending 3 teams down a division makes no sense for the bigger programs. They have the potential to play every team twice...That 10 league games...Let say the field is so even (never happens) and everyone beats each other. Not going to lie, 5-5 league record will not get an at large bid in the tourney. Big teams need the little teams to help their stats...

Correct NU was not the team they were pre Tim Gray, but now the prgram has changed, NU used to go to New Orleans to drink and maybe play some lacrosse for spring break, but you don't see that happening anymore now that it is a sucessful program. sure they will be hurt by alot of graduation some years but the foundation has been build and they can feed that foundation.
My argument is based around the future potential of the programs in the PCLL. I think that since 2005 the club lax scene has grown tremendously and I believe that the smaller schools are going ot have trouble keeping up with that growth. Hey its just an opinion doesn't make it law!

About the little teams helping their stats i am not sure if that is helpful to the big team or the PCLL in general. I have a feeling that if the Big 6 teams that we are discussing only have 5-10 in conference games they would put alot more thought and effort into making more OOC trips in order to increase their rep around the country. If a team knew they were only going to have 10 games in a season they would try to get that number closer to 15-18 which is alot more then the 3 that most teams seem to do.

perfect example: NU is being hurt right now becuase they did not schedule such OOC games against many top teams. If they had not had to play the schools we are talking about being B division who is to say that would not have been able to fit an additional trip out west into their schedule. Sure no one is to say that they would have but it would be nice to give them that choice.

[LaxZac02]

Salem 13
BSC 6

[laxnum9]

personally i don't really like to hear people say that no good lacrosse player would ever want to go to a B division school from what i have seen plenty of these "talentless" players could probably be playing for the A division or even D2 or 3 but instead they decided to play B and play for maybe a slightly under par team according to some people but they are probably playing for the love of the game not to play against big league schools i don't know maybe i have no idea what i am talking about but i have seen a lot of talent in the B division

[NUlaxN17]

Salem 13
BSC 6

Realignment? Anyone? Anyone at all?

[LaxZac02]

Salem 13
BSC 6

Realignment? Anyone? Anyone at all?

Well, I mean, here come all the excuses about how they only just got a coach this year and that it was only their 5th game this season. I feel like I'de rather be playing on a B team that travels to Florida, has a great coach, wins alot of their games, and gets invited to the national tournament rather than the lower tier A team that loses to said B team (last year and this year). I'm sure some high school coaches would take that into consideration too.

[PSLguy]

personally i don't really like to hear people say that no good lacrosse player would ever want to go to a B division school from what i have seen plenty of these "talentless" players could probably be playing for the A division or even D2 or 3

I don't think anyone was insinuating that there aren't good players at the MCLA B schools. However the existance of that talent is result of the growth of lacrosse nationwide. It has reached the point where enough of these kids go to a school for education or circumstantial reasons, and find out that they can continue to play through the MCLA. The shotgun effect, as it were.

On the other hand the organization, competitiveness, and resources are reaching a level at some MCLA-A schools that kids that are proactively looking to make lacrosse part of the "college experience" can choose such a school knowing that everyone else has the same level of motivation. This is why CSU, BYU, and a few others have been so good for so long and it's also why a HS coach can point a grad in their direction knowing that it's a suitable alternative to some NCAA programs.

Understandably, the "big 6" in the PCLL would like to mimic that success and outside of OOC games, making the A division more competitive from top to bottom is one of the better ways to improve national recognition in the polls.

[Nik]

The way I look at it, I would rather play for a competitive "B" team than an "A" team that loses on a regular basis. Where is the attraction in playing for a losing team???? In choosing a school to play for I think more individuals would look at record and not whether a team is labeled Div. A or Div. B. If they didn't their priorities would be pretty messed up.

By the way, BSC just got beat 13-6 by Div. B Salem State. What does that tell ya????

[LaxZac02]

Understandably, the "big 6" in the PCLL would like to mimic that success and outside of OOC games, making the A division more competitive from top to bottom is one of the better ways to improve national recognition in the polls.

Not to mention the increase in competition that will occur if some A teams were brought down to B, thus improving the PCLL all around and legitimizing both A and B.

[Dan Warren]

so now any argument against a realingment is thown out the window because BSC has an awful team this year and lost to Salem State 13-6? Please. For the record, I never once said that they were a great team, or that they could beat any of the A teams this year. My argument is that them "dropping down" to B would be a bad thing to see happen given the fact that the program has proven in the recent past that it can compete with the top teams in the A division. If I was still coaching there, I would NEVER let this happen. I don't think that kids would want to go there to play when they could go play D3 down the road at U Mass Dartmouth, or any other of the 18+ D3 schools in Mass, or the numerous Varsity programs across New England. I do not think that B level teams are bad, I just hate to see that program regress after all the steps it has take to legitimize itself over the last 15 years. I have seen it go from independent club with guys smoking butts on the sideline to a PCLL team, to a #25 National Ranking in '02, playing ball all over the states, back down to a joke last season and thus far this season. I just don't want them to go down to B. I am not trying to degrade any teams for playing in the B division...at all. I just worked really hard to get that program going in the right direction and it kills me to see what has happend so fast since 2005. I wish the AD would get some balls and make it a varsity sport...I think this qualifies as a rant. time for bed