PCLL Re-alignment????

[Tim Gray]

Since this has now come up twice in the weekly game thread, I figured I'd start it's own thread and let the weekly one serve it's purpose.

I definitely think that the PCLL is on the verge of a re-alignment. I think we're starting to notice across the country, as well as here in the PCLL that the larger schools are able to draw more students and therefore able to out together a more competitive team. I believe that there are 6 teams who I would say are definitely Div A teams: NU, BC, BU, URI, UCONN and UNH. This is for the sole fact that they have at least 10,000 undergraduates each.

The smaller schools WPI, Stonehill, Bridgewater, USCG all of which have I believe less than 5,000 each will find it harder each year to draw enough talent to compete.

I bet the larger schools could easily draw 15-20 interested new players each year, while I bet the smaller schools would have trouble getting that.

Here at NU we had 70 interested players in the fall. That's enough to field 3 teams.

I think the flip side is that the Div B is no longer viewed across the country as a "developmental league". There are some very good teams out there in Div B. And I think some of our current B teams as well as some of the smaller A teams could compete for a national title if they could just get onto the scene with some OOC games. We'll see with New Haven this weekend traveling and playing Carnigie Mellon and Grove City.

[pokecheck]

this arguement defiantly has merit, didn't stonehill beat a top ten B team on their spring trip? this also may help to encourage those 6 A teams tim mentioned to go on more OOC trips. NU is catching alot of flak for not playing a tougher OOC schedule this year. But if our A teams only had 6 regular season league games they may look at making more and more OOC trips to play higher quality teams.

this in turn may encourage other teams to come to this area to play.

[pokecheck]

also you could have the 6 A teams play each other twice thus every team has a home and away game vs each oppenent.

[NKlaxguy]

We used to play teams twice back in the day, when the PCLL was split into north and south. Could do something similar again. Just gotta keep at least 6 A teams as I think thats the number required for an AQ.

I gotta go to the bar, way too much posting for one day...

[More Cowbell]

Love this idea. Restructuring would allow the 6 Div A teams to have much more competitive schedules. Playing a PCLL schedule would no longer be considered weak, and the A teams would have more freedom in their schedule to play good OOC competition.

The teams moving down to the B division would also probably like the switch. It cant be fun playing NU, UNH, BC, etc every year when you can never beat them.

[Ben Clark]

The teams moving down to the B division would also probably like the switch. It cant be fun playing NU, UNH, BC, etc every year when you can never beat them.

You just said the smaller schools can never beat the "six Division A" teams. Just as an example, the only teams out of the "six Division A" teams WPI hasn't beaten since 2004 are UNH and BC. I won't speak for BSC or SC, but I'm sure they have had similar results. So how are you defining your "six Division A" teams? It obviously isn't from results.

I understand that WPI had a down year last year, but doesn't everyone? What happens (and I can guarantee it would happen VERY quickly - probably in year #1) when one of your "six Division A" teams loses to a Division B team (WPI, SC, or BSC, assuming they all move down)? That wouldn't look good at all. I could see a situation where A teams are afraid to schedule B teams. That does not make for a healthy conference.

As bad as everyone might think it is to have 10 teams in the A division, it is 100 times worse (as we have already seen) to try to FORCE the PCLL into having a Division B AQ.

This kind of conversation honestly just gets annoying. Stop assuming that the smaller schools aren't constantly evaluating where they're at. If moving to Division B happens to be in the best interest of MY TEAM, then that's what we'll do. Until I decide that my team can't compete, please respect our decision to continue to play in Division A.

[pokecheck]

I think the bigger picture needs to be looked at here.

The thing about the PCLL is that the B divsion teams is looked at as a developmental league, but all of the larger conferences B division is looked at as a legitimate place for the smaller school to compete. This tranistion is not a hard one to make, one team like Stonehill, WPI, BSC going to the national tournament and making some noise is all it takes. The PCLL B division could become what the WCLL A division is, sending the AQ as well as 2-3 at large bids consistantly per season.

Sure the smaller teams will be able to hang with the larger schools some seasons but if you want to build a winning program one should be focusedon have consistancy within said program. If the smaller schools could offer recruits the chance to play for a program that always goes to the playoffs every year who is to say that might influence some better players to look into going to a smaller school.

Also to the point that was made about A division being scared to schedule B division teams: Why would they even have to schedule any B division teams? I might be wrong here and feel free to correct me but i did some poking around at the other conference sites and noticed that rarely do programs in other conferences schedule their B division counterparts. Again this would stress the PCLL's A division teams to schedule more OOC games.

[tduggan]

The one variable missing in this discussion is school support. At the "Div" level, one of the consistant factors is school/athletic dept support. At the club level, however; you can be one of the best teams in the league with the largest student body and crushing every team you meet but if you lose supprt (ie. $$, facilities, admin support, etc), within two years, you can be back at the bottom. Conversely, you may not have the student body size but great support and therefor find yourself competitive each year. URI has gone through this cycle and continues to fight battles for support which is continually decreased year after year. Even if you have a student population of 20,000 with 200 HS all-americans enrolled, they won't come out if you have no school support.

[Tim Gray]

This is something the EB has been discussing in the past week. We would never force teams to play in one division or the other, but Bridgewater, Stonehill, and WPI, based on their size, are all classified as Division B teams. They currently choose to play up in Division A. But as NE, BC, UNH, and a couple of the larger schools with a larger student pool and in some cases, better resources continue to grow their programs, it is becoming difficult for these smaller schools to keep up. But Stonehill for instance has tremendous school support, great talent, is very well organized and mounts OOC trips every year, and would be a fierce competitor in the Division B. They could be Top 10 easy. I would hope that some of these schools seriously consider the move to Div B, to provide a more competitive atmosphere for their players and a realistic chance to compete for a regional and even national title each season.

Technically all schools in the PCLL are Div B teams except for UCONN and BC. But like Dan said, we would never force a team to compete in one division or the other, but it is somethng for teams to consider.

[Dan Warren]

Most of the veteran PCLL coaches know how I feel about BSC going to Div. B, but since I am not the coach anymore....


BSC in 2002: 7-3 with 2 wins over URI (#18, and #22 at the time), a 17-16 OT loss to NU, a 4-2 win over UCONN, a win over BU, and a 6 goal loss to UNH (17-11)...finished 7-3, #2 in the PCLL with a bye in the playoffs...

BSC in 2003: a "down year" but beat NU, UConn and URI, lost to a 9-1 BC by 4 and lost in the playoffs by 2 to NU (also travelled to Tenn. and V tech)

BSC in 2004: finished 7-8, beat UC Davis, 1 goal losses to URI and UCONN, lost by 5 to NU, and badly to a powerhouse BC team...but were a tough team to face in the PCLL that year regardless

BSC in 2005: finished 10-8 losing to BC in the playoffs...went on a southern trip losing to NC State (10-7) and beating USC (12-9), beat Santa Clara and Cal at home, beat BU and UCONN, lost 10-8 to a nationally ranked PITT team, beat Buffalo at home 8-4.

So, does BSC deserve to be "relegated" to Div. B? I don't think so. Have they dominated? Certainly not, but they have been very competitive in Div. A over the last 5 years. They had a horrible year last year with a coach that "allegedly" ripped off the team, and only showed up for practice once in a while to do EMO. They now have their third coach in as many years this season, who is just learning the ropes and how to handle the administration. I think it would be a shame to relegate them. Playing a "B" schedule is not going to attact any players to play at BSC. I think it stinks. Give them a break.

[Dan Warren]

and BSC is not a small school, it has 10,000+

[Daniel Morris]

So, does BSC deserve to be "relegated" to Div. B? I don't think so. Have they dominated? Certainly not, but they have been very competitive in Div. A over the last 5 years. They had a horrible year last year with a coach that "allegedly" ripped off the team, and only showed up for practice once in a while to do EMO. They now have their third coach in as many years this season, who is just learning the ropes and how to handle the administration. I think it would be a shame to relegate them. Playing a "B" schedule is not going to attact any players to play at BSC. I think it stinks. Give them a break.

That is the problem. Playing in Division B isn't a punishment. It isn't a team being "relegated". Division B has some mighty good schools across the country. Playing in Division B means you have a chance to compete for a league and national tournament and have entirely new options when it comes to scheduling games. I think players would want to play at a school that can put together a solid program that competes against the country's best Division B teams, sees themselves nationally ranked, and has a legit shot at going to a national tournament every year. If a team feels they are becoming too dominant in Division B, they move up to Division A. They can make the switch any year they want. The league isn't the way it used to be. Lacrosse in general isn't the way it used to be. The best teams we played on or against in the PCLL when we were in college wouldn't have a prayer against the competition right now. The dominant Rhode Island teams of the early 2000's would be middle of the pack now. I'm not saying a team like Bridgewater couldn't regain that elite status, but right now, they might be better served playing in the B Division.

[Tim Gray]

Again, no one would be forced to move. This topic was being talked about in another thread, so I started it's own thread. The league cannnot force a team to play either way. If a team wants to play in "A", they can petition to do that, just like NU, UNH, BU, BSC, Stonehill, WPI USCGA and URI have done.

[LaxZac02]

"Playing a "B" schedule is not going to attact any players to play at BSC. I think it stinks. Give them a break."

If you are playing good B teams and have a competative schedual kids will always be interested in joining your program. Although B may have a number of teams who are just getting started, there are still many very good teams in the B division. Some of these lower A teams talk about division B like its the worst lacrosse that has ever been played. Stop being so condecending and look at the big picture. If some of the lower A teams got bumped down to B, it would bring more legitimacy to the PCLL Division B and raise the level of competition. If you were smoking all the teams, then obviously you would be making a statement that you were way to good for B, but until you can say with confidence that joining division B and beating all the top 10 teams in the country would be a cakewalk you can't really act as if its a huge punishment to be put into B. l

[Dan Warren]

Well, that's how I feel. I DO look at it as punishment. Maybe I am just too competitive, but that's how I am. I just don't think good lacrosse players are going to want to go play "B" level club lacrosse in Massachusetts. Why would they when they could just as easily go play D3 at a million schools in the same region? A case for playing A ball at the club level could easily be made because of the big name schools that you play ie BC, UNH, NU,and with travel opportunities to play schools like V Tech, Cal, Michigan, Colorado State, etc. I am not trying to be condescending, I am just speaking what I feel is the truth. You are not going to get good HS lacrosse players to play B lacrosse in Mass. You might develop a few kids, but you won't get the good high school players like NU, BC, UNH.

and Dan, my examples were not from long ago, it's still the same era. Teams go through tough times,and come back.