UWSP not playing out of conference games this year?

[LaxTV_Admin]

As far as the B division goes, I do not think it is a developmental league. I also don't think that UMLL would necessarily benefit from St. Johns and St. Thomas moving to A while moving a team like Marquette/Iowa State, etc. to B. (No disrespect intended to any of those teams)

I do not think the desired outcome of leveling the playing field and getting games that matter more would be the end result. I see it more like Rob mentioned, in that teams getting moved to B would continue to flounder instead of thriving.

Lastly, teams do have the ability to make changes. If they choose to, any team can be competitive in either league. I think that onus lies on the teams themselves regardless of division.

[Gooseguy10]

Re. UMD dominant against who? Well prior to the UMLL entering the USLIA in 2000, the winner of the UMLL went to a national tournament put on by NIRSA. Both in 1997 and 1998 teams from the UMLL competed on a national level. In 1997, UMD got second while only falling to the University of Texas in Carbondale. In 1998 UMD got third in Santa Barbara. (Losing to Rhode Island and the champion, Texas) The teams they played against all had players with profound experience in HS. So if you absolutely need to have players with HS experience, then why was UMD (and the U in 1998) able to compete at a national level? If the UMLL as a whole (UMD included) were a bunch of no talent drunks, why were they able to play nationally?

Some believe that the UMD team of 1997 could be very competitive in today's league. If you look at some of today's elite post collegiate players in MN, many of them played on that 1997 team. Gary Habisch and Corey McKusick being prime examples! Neither of these players had any HS experience and both would be dominant in today's UMLL.

Being that you were in 8th grade in 2000, it leads me to believe that you were not at too many UMLL games in the 1990's. So you did not see teams like Mankato or the U of M. They were competitive and had good players....Luke Foslin, Chad Herr, Ben Mooney, Dolan, Brian Hurley, Matt Labbs, Craig Fuller).....I could go on. And Rob is correct SJU beat UMD in 1997.

Finally, I started watching the UMLL in 1995, and yet I never saw a keg of beer on the sidelines. It is interesting how new generations of lacrosse players instantly assume that the past players were no talent drunks but how they can very rarely back up their claims b.c they were still in diapers when the games were being played.

[msum26]

Agree whole heartedly.
My last saying on this matter is as follows i remember a conversation i had with Chris Larson at our fall ball tournament. We happened to be discussing our move to B. In our exchange of words something he said made sence. You will always have top tier teams in any sport the goal is to work and get better and challenge and compete with teams like that. B is perfect for smaller schools to COMPETE with schools much like themselves.

after hearing Chris say that i began to think and after rob's post early i wonder why not take the fact that SJU and UST are good and use that as motivation to get better and work harder and try and knock them off. SJU and UST do a wonderful job in all aspects. I try with my team and our coaches use the fact that SJU was not successful not that long ago(no disrespect) and look where they are now. We say to ourselves why cant that be us.

So in closing there will never be 100% agreement on this issue. However the B and A respectively do as much as they can to make the UMLL as a whole league better.

Just my Thoughts

Corey Samora
MSU-Moorhead Board Member

[horn17]

Mike,

Stop making excuses for the competition. If you dont like losing, go out practice harder, and recruit players. There is nothing to say you cant do the same thing that these programs are doing. Verona WI has a pretty good team dont they? Go out and get those kids, they arent going to magically fall into your lap - it takes intiative , and drive. You have to work to be successful at everything in life, lacrosse is no different. No one is going to wave a magic wand and "poof" here come the W's. (Determination, hard work, and striving to be the best - thats what it takes to be a top team in our league, thats the secret incase you were wondering) Though you personally are entitled to your OPINION - keep it to yourself when you are talking down upon teams in the league - everyone love bulletin board material. This isnt HS , what you did there has no merrit in this arguement...you know what it takes to win, you were 48-4 right? Think back, and bring that to the field.....
Meanwhile, you spend time hacking away at your keyboard....couldnt you be improving right now??


To everyone else, sorry for my rant...I cant believe this is even being talked about....

[Moose]

Mike, When I took over UST 5 years ago, this team was on the verge of falling apart. They had no coach, players that cared more about the social side than lax. We had a team meeting and I said I would come aboard as the head coach, but there would be some very strict rules. I have been blessed with assistant coaches that at times spend more time on lacrosse than their own jobs! We have adopted a code of conduct, and preparation. Trust me it is not always FUN playing for me. We have set our personal standards high and there has been sacrifice by my players and coaches that I am very proud of. We have set goals, one is to win a national championship, that has yet to be reached. Our current success is a result of 5 years of total dedication. It is our goal to be the best B team in the nation and set the standard high, I would think that should be the goal of any team. A division is not even on our radar, we still have a lot of work to do. I would challenge you and all other UMLL B teams to push yourselves and not look to the "field of teams" to make it easier. While we carry the #1 ranking I believe the entire top 5 may be 10 nationally are very close as far as talent and ability. We have faced many challenges with the school and outside, and we have come together and instead of saying that is just how it is, we have found a way to get past it. Being a club team is not easy, I know. But each team has to look at what they have and where they want to be and make a plan to get there and make it happen. That is what will grow and change our conference and Division, not restructuring.

[horn17]

Whoa is me...and the lets have a pity party routes dont work in the real world...dont use them here...

[LaxRef]

I'd just point out that if there were only one division, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Do we ever say, "Man, the Oakland Raiders suck, they should move to the NFL Europe and let the Rhein Fire move to the NFL!" (okay, I'm just guessing who a good NFL Europe team might be)?

And in the NCAA, do they take the bad DI or DII teams and move them down a division and take the good DIII and DII teams and move them up? Occasionally, schools decide to change divisions, but it's not just because they had a few down years.

In fact, the only place I'm aware of the sort of movement some are proposing is in European soccer, where teams that do poorly are relegated to a lower division and other teams move up. But—and I'm an ignorant American when it comes to this topic, so excuse me if I don't have it quite right—I think they do this because they have a lot of clubs that want to be in the A league and a limited number of spots. (Suppose there were 100 teams that fancied themselves NFL caliber; you couldn't manage a league with that many teams and expect to have a meaningful regular season and post season.)

For team sports, having a division contested by smaller schools makes a lot of sense, as does letting the smaller teams "play up" to a higher division if they desire. But I think it's unfair to take a team that has worked hard to have success in the smaller division and say, "You need to move up so the other teams can have a chance." That, to me, smacks of the same sort of reasoning that gives every kid in the race—from first to last—a blue ribbon so that no one will "feel bad."

And I only think having these sorts of distinctions in divisions makes sense in team sports. I don't understand why some states have an individual state champion in, say, cross country in the big school division and another in the small school division. Either you're the fastest runner in the state or not: the number of other students in the school shouldn't make a difference.

[horn17]

I'd just point out that if there were only one division, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Do we ever say, "Man, the Oakland Raiders suck, they should move to the NFL Europe and let the Rhein Fire move to the NFL!" (okay, I'm just guessing who a good NFL Europe team might be)?

Delete Raiders - Insert MINNESOTA VIKINGS

[DwinsChamps]

After rereading this thread, I can see how my opinions were misconstrued as thoughts that UST/SJU should move up to give others a chance. I'm merely suggesting that such a move would A) Increase UST/SJU's competition, as they've proven they can handle the rest of the conference, and B) allow the remaining club teams to enjoy significantly more competitive games. Yet, I understand that those in power should hate to relinquish it to allow for such to occur.

I wholeheartedly agree that teams need to improve themselves before calling for conference adjustments. Yet, in the UMLL-B, the skill norm is somewhere near Bethel/Carleton/UWEC's ability...I consider UST/SJU as outliers, the same as I consider Iowa St. and Marquette/UW-S.P. as outliers in the A division. And Panchito, I've seen your team enough to know what Marquette lacrosse is "all about." I grew up watching you on weekends, and for five seasons I was coached by Mark King, an MU lax alumnus.

And as for the comment regarding the competition, or lack thereof, in the past of the UMLL, I have spent alot of time through the years watching the games and leaving unimpressed. I assumed that the talent and depth would have been higher than it was, as now the talent and depth possessed by MOST teams in the UMLL, A and B, is significantly higher now than it has been in years past, when the conferences were determined.

If teams wish to remain big fish in small ponds, then that's their perogative.

[dulax19]

horn dont you have a job or something you should be working on

[LaxRef]

After rereading this thread, I can see how my opinions were misconstrued as thoughts that UST/SJU should move up to give others a chance. I'm merely suggesting that such a move would A) Increase UST/SJU's competition, as they've proven they can handle the rest of the conference, and B) allow the remaining club teams to enjoy significantly more competitive games.

(A) That's what OOC games are for, plus they're still gunning for the MCLA "B" Championship.

(B) Here's where you're way off. It simply is not the responsibility of any sports team anywhere to go find a tougher league because they're beating the teams in their league too easily. If the other teams want more competitive games, they can either rise to the challenge, hope the other teams stop being so good, or deal with getting beaten. The onus is on them, not on the good teams.

And as for the comment regarding the competition, or lack thereof, in the past of the UMLL, I have spent alot of time through the years watching the games and leaving unimpressed. I assumed that the talent and depth would have been higher than it was, as now the talent and depth possessed by MOST teams in the UMLL, A and B, is significantly higher now than it has been in years past, when the conferences were determined

If teams wish to remain big fish in small ponds, then that's their perogative.

Ah, yes. The good teams should just go join a league on the west coast where the competition is tougher.

Most club teams are stuck with where they are. Duluth isn't going to travel to So Cal every week, nor will those teams come to Duluth. So what can a team like that do?

If only there were some national association such teams could join where they could play competitive OOC games. Maybe they could even set up some kind of national championship tournament.

But you're right: that will never happen, because they'd prefer being the big fish in the small pond.

[horn17]

After rereading this thread, I can see how my opinions were misconstrued as thoughts that UST/SJU should move up to give others a chance. I'm merely suggesting that such a move would A) Increase UST/SJU's competition, as they've proven they can handle the rest of the conference, and B) allow the remaining club teams to enjoy significantly more competitive games. Yet, I understand that those in power should hate to relinquish it to allow for such to occur.

I wholeheartedly agree that teams need to improve themselves before calling for conference adjustments. Yet, in the UMLL-B, the skill norm is somewhere near Bethel/Carleton/UWEC's ability...I consider UST/SJU as outliers, the same as I consider Iowa St. and Marquette/UW-S.P. as outliers in the A division. And Panchito, I've seen your team enough to know what Marquette lacrosse is "all about." I grew up watching you on weekends, and for five seasons I was coached by Mark King, an MU lax alumnus.

Marquette is definitely and A team....and though they had a rough one last year, they are on the way back up...if you feel so strongly about "leveling the playing field" - I will again address the issue of responsiblity on your part... I'm tired of reading the posts saying that "well they're good, move em up..." the logic is not to have a feeder program for the A division - as everyone has outlined- its to keep the smaller schools competitive with the smaller schools based on size and some varsity athletic justifications - if you aren't competitive in your division or if you constantly get beat by the top contenders, look in the mirror, its no one elses fault.....

No more ranting.....

And I repeat...I dont know why we are even talking about this...doesnt it come up every year now....

[Gooseguy10]

You're right, there is no comparing past nationally competitive teams to the current, periennial power house....UWEC. I think most people who have seen UWEC play are left "unimpressed!" Keep complaining about how you are getting jobbed b.c your team can't win a B division game b.c the other teams are just too good...great arument there.

Have a good weekend.

[Sonny]

OK folks. Let's cool our jets a bit and move on to other bigger and better topics.