Colorado 6, Oregon 5 FINAL (3/26/07 at Tempe, AZ)

[univduke21]

I understand that Michigan has beat Florida and FSU this year. But as we all know that non league games don't count in records and polls, so the Kenyon and Wooster games don't count. I think that it is stupid but that's reality. But I think that Oregon still has beaten 3 of the top 6 and 2 of the top 4 and considering they are one of those teams it is really 3 of the top 5 and #3 and #4. Michigan has their chance at both BYU and CSU and if they win those games at the end of the year they will jump Oregon for the #1 spot, but at the time being I think that you have to still give Oregon #1.

[scooter]

I understand that Michigan has beat Florida and FSU this year. But as we all know that non league games don't count in records and polls, so the Kenyon and Wooster games don't count. I think that it is stupid but that's reality. But I think that Oregon still has beaten 3 of the top 6 and 2 of the top 4 and considering they are one of those teams it is really 3 of the top 5 and #3 and #4. Michigan has their chance at both BYU and CSU and if they win those games at the end of the year they will jump Oregon for the #1 spot, but at the time being I think that you have to still give Oregon #1.

Just because non-league games dont count in standings doesnt mean that voters dont take into account wins and losses in poll voting.

U of M beat both floridas and 2 D3 schools....thats how i would look at it if i were a voter.

[DG]

That interesting. Not to dog Michigan but they really haven't beaten anyone this year. I think you have to look at oregon and say, you lost to colorado but you beat BYU, CSU, Sonoma. I think they stay #1. But they might not, not to bring up the idea of a conspiracy theory but if this was BYU, UCSB, CSU, or Sonoma I think they would be #1, but the fact it is Oregon, they might move down. The question becomes as well, how far up does Colorado move? I think that they move up to 5 no questions asked. This will be an interesting next poll.

The question about a new #1 is interesting. The main question here is this: If Oregon had stayed undefeated, would Michigan have jumped over BYU based on their performance since the last poll? If so, then they deserve to go to #1. I think that Michigan might indeed deserve to go to #1. That said, games against Non-MCLA (DIII and DII) teams shouldn't count as part of their "body of work", IMO.

I think the Ducks have proved a lot this year, and if they move down it will probably only be to #2. Based on past experience, if this was BYU, I guarantee that they would drop at least one spot.

CU will move up, probably to #5. There are many questions here...Who is this CU team? Is CU the same team that didn't play as well as expected in Texas, or are Texas and Texas A&M better than expected? What about ASU and U of A? U of A gave Oregon all it could handle a couple of days ago. The crazy thing is that it is conceivable that CU could have lost to either U of A or ASU and then beaten Oregon the next day...what a messy situation that would have been.

For my money, this just further confirms that the top end of the MCLA is no longer limited to 4-5 traditional teams. Those teams will figure prominently in Dallas, but there are a lot more teams capable of making a championship run in 2007.

DG

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

I just flew into Phoenix and I'll be at the ASU vs. Oregon game tomorrow. I'll find someone to call the action into. . .so at least that game will have live action on the site.

No JP, I don't have a Verizon wireless card. . .I'll have to use the cell phone.

[univduke21]

[Just because non-league games dont count in standings doesnt mean that voters dont take into account wins and losses in poll voting]

Actually voters are not supossed to take into account games against DII and DIII teams.

So I have to think that the top 5 will look something like this (assuming Oregon beats ASU tomorrow)

1.Oregon
2.Michigan
3.BYU
4.CSU
5.CU[/quote]

[CATLAX MAN]

Actually voters are not supossed to take into account games against DII and DIII teams.

Can you point to where it says that? I think that is opinion, not fact.

I agree with DG, the Oregon loss should drop them one spot, just as it would for any other team. Michigan should be the #1 team, IMO. Of course, it's just that, an opinion.

[Kyle Berggren]

That is a really interesting discussion. Voters need to use all the information they have in placing teams... not doing so means you're doing all the teams & the polls a dis-service (IMHO).

But Oregon could feasibly still be the number 1... It's tough to have BYU leap-frog them, & it really does come down to whether or not Michigan should have leap-frogged BYU. DG is dead on. I'm excited to see these games in Dallas. While there may be more teams in the mix than just the traditional five, the seeding becomes more important...

I personally hope Oregon didn't peak too early (& I hope that motivates the Ducks). Beating 2 number 1's is huge, but you've got to be just as up for the rest of these games.

Congrats to the Buffs! It's nice to see you guys getting back on track!

[Ravaging Beast]

Actually voters are not supossed to take into account games against DII and DIII teams.

Can you point to where it says that? I think that is opinion, not fact.

I agree with DG, the Oregon loss should drop them one spot, just as it would for any other team. Michigan should be the #1 team, IMO. Of course, it's just that, an opinion.

No, no, no, no, no Catlax. What has Michigan done to deserve the number one spot? Beaten a couple of DII and DIII teams and some lower ranked MCLA teams. I would expect most top MCLA teams to do that. Until they beat BYU, Oregon, CSU, or even CU, they should not be in the number one spot. I would expect Oregon to hold on to the number one spot. No other teams have proved anything the past two weeks. All I could see is maybe having BYU pick up a few more first place votes. Wait until after April 17 to put them at #1.

[CATLAX MAN]

No, no, no, no, no Catlax. What has Michigan done to deserve the number one spot? Beaten a couple of DII and DIII teams and some lower ranked MCLA teams.

You answered your own question here. Although some will claim that the games against varsity don't count, I think you can draw some conclusions from them. Generally speaking, an MCLA team is expected to lose to an established mid-tier varsity program. Kenyon is a pretty decent team. They are undefeated (except for Michigan game which they don't count) and ranked #18 in Division III. Beating them tells me that Michigan is a pretty good team themselves. That is affirmed by their victories over a couple of ranked MCLA teams.

Oregon just lost a game to the #7 team..probably soon to be #5. That has to drop them at least 1 spot to #2. I don't think that you can make a case for any other team, other than Michigan, to be above Oregon right now. I don't see how BYU gets any 1st place votes as Oregon has beaten them already.

Having said this, I can understand the viewpoint that Oregon could still be #1. It's a valid argument; I just don't think it's a done deal.

[Ravaging Beast]

Ok. I'll take that. But at least admit that you aren't surprised that they beat Kenyon. I know some guys on Kenyon, and they aren't anything special.

[John Paul]

This is probably a discussion better served in the Polls forum, but I can tell you as a voter that I always consider games against varsity teams if those games were played as games, not scrimmages. There is no rule saying we ignore those games. If you do your research you can find out how the games were scheduled and played and also estimate how good the varsity teams are.

That said, I'm not sure where I'll be voting us yet. I haven't voted us #1 in years (even last year when we reached #1, I wasn't one of those votes - we promptly lost the next week, so I guess I was right).

It's definitely the most interesting year in the short history of the league.

[Rob Graff]

I, too, consider games v. D1/2/3 teams in my poll, but only if 3 uniformed officials were there, and both teams consider it a game (i.e. score kept).

I do know that some poll voters do not, for very defensible reasons. I think that is fine because there is no guidance on this point from the poll, and I believe that to be acceptable.

My only caveat to a poll voter that does take those games into account is to do so consistently - either all D1/2/3 games are taken into account for all teams scheduling such games (win or loss) or none are taken into account.

Rob

[Has No Left]

Everyone who has the resources should get the statcrew program and a verizon (or similar) card and account for a laptop. It's a simple and easy way to post live stats for every single game, home or away. Aside from the equipment (which many have already), all you need is a capable stats person. I'm surprised more of the top 25 level teams aren't doing this already.

In order to use StatCrew, you need to have the following items:

1. A PC running windows
2. A dedicated stat person who knows thier way around a pc
3. The Stat Crew Automated Scorebook for Lacrosse ($350.00) - no discounts
4. StatCrew TASFTP ($350.00) additional for live stats. Check with your athletic director; you may have a license for this program through your institution.
4. A dedicated server on the www that you have admin rights to or someone willing togive you admin rights.

Setting it all up and getting everything working is fairly easy, but Verizon access is not a slam-dunk - it doesn't work everywhere as we found out at NDNU but it is fairly reliable.

(this post made using windows crossbow beta for Windows Mobile) It really, really works - so far!)

[John Paul]

Right. That's why I said "everyone who has the resources."

Aside from the money ($350 - $700 total), the toughest thing is the dedicated stats person or people. We use one person entering the data and one spotting for them.

The laptop is obviously pretty easy to find.

The dedicated server is easy to solve. The last couple of years, until we switched to GameBreaker which has its own CSTV server, we just used a personal website provided as part of a standard Comcast internet contract.

Anyway, it's worth looking into.

[OAKS]

Everyone who has the resources should get the statcrew program and a verizon (or similar) card and account for a laptop. It's a simple and easy way to post live stats for every single game, home or away. Aside from the equipment (which many have already), all you need is a capable stats person. I'm surprised more of the top 25 level teams aren't doing this already.

In order to use StatCrew, you need to have the following items:

1. A PC running windows
2. A dedicated stat person who knows thier way around a pc
3. The Stat Crew Automated Scorebook for Lacrosse ($350.00) - no discounts
4. StatCrew TASFTP ($350.00) additional for live stats. Check with your athletic director; you may have a license for this program through your institution.
4. A dedicated server on the www that you have admin rights to or someone willing togive you admin rights.

Setting it all up and getting everything working is fairly easy, but Verizon access is not a slam-dunk - it doesn't work everywhere as we found out at NDNU but it is fairly reliable.

(this post made using windows crossbow beta for Windows Mobile) It really, really works - so far!)

<Start Shameless Plug>
http://www.ialax.com will soon offer a Live Game Stats area for teams that will be included with their regular yearly site plan at no extra cost. If things go well, I may offer it for free for any MCLA team as a program separate from the team sites (I might throw in some advertisements to pay for the bandwidth, or perhaps ask for donations, or as a last resort charge something like $5 per game if it gets really heavy usage). All you would need is an internet connection and someone to input the roster and stats if you want run it (it would be a mix of live stats on the CollegeLax website for the tournament last year, the StatCrew program, and the GameTracker software you see on CSTV's sites). Ideally we will be able to code it in a way that a user will not need more than 5 minutes of training on the software.

I'll try to have it ready by the time conference tournaments start up, but if not, it'll definitely be a go for next year.
<end shameless plug>