News Flash - Butler's Varsity Program has been cut.

[mholtz]

I concur with JP. This is bad for midwest Lacrosse. I wish all their players the best.

[coachpg]

I will tell you that as a caoch that has gone through this while at Gannon Univ. in 2000, it is the most gut wrenching experience I ever faced professionally. We were dropped after only our first season as a D-I program , and had gone 10-5 our first year, knocking off some very good teams. We were dropped the last week of fall ball, and had four recruits on campus at the moment we were told. Players, parents, and assistant coaches all felt betrayed by the university, since most of the players turned down other offers from other schools to commit to building a program they believed would be around forever. I think in some ways the success of college club ball has made the decision easier for some AD's and administrations. In my current job, I meet with AD's all the time who say that if they had a choice now regarding lacrosse, they might opt for the club route because it still offers his student body the opportunity to play, win a national championship, be an all-american, and not have to deal with the NCAA, or balance title IX issues. I feel for Stan big time, because if it was like for us at Gannon, we never saw it coming. The schools that will pick up some talented players as a result of this can really bolster their programs, just ask Coach Cottle who picked up Gavin Prout from us............Christmas came early to Loyola that year.

[Beta]

Im sure underwater basket weaving enjoyed the money that it received.

[coachpg]

Our 12.6 went to women's lax and football

[John Paul]

I think in some ways the success of college club ball has made the decision easier for some AD's and administrations. In my current job, I meet with AD's all the time who say that if they had a choice now regarding lacrosse, they might opt for the club route because it still offers his student body the opportunity to play, win a national championship, be an all-american, and not have to deal with the NCAA, or balance title IX issues.

Coach Ginnegar,
I have heard that statement a lot from varsity college coaches, but I have to respectfully disagree with the thought process.

Most AD's are not considering adding men's lacrosse anyway, especially at the D1 level. They don't have the money. Whether or not club lacrosse even exists has no bearing on their financial situations, which in most cases are pretty dire.

Most AD's I know, especially D1 AD's, don't pay the slightest bit of attention to club sports on their campus anyway. They make the decision to add varsity sports for three main reasons: 1. to satisfy Title IX requirements (almost always adding women's sports of course), 2. to increase enrollment and tuition income (almost never a consideration at D1, but often a consideration at D3 - in which case a varsity program is much more advantageous to them than a club a program), and 3. because of major endowment level donations to support the program (hasn't happened much yet with lacrosse, but it will as the sport continues to grow).

When you take our passion for the sport and concern for our lacrosse brethren out of the equation (impossible for us, I know), the business decision to cut men's lacrosse at some schools is tough to avoid. I doubt very much the potential to field a club team in the MCLA was even discussed by the Butler AD. I'd bet he doesn't even know we exist. That certainly does not justify the manner in which this seems to have been handled at Butler, at Gannon, at Michigan State and other schools where it's happened. That, to me, is inexcusable.

[benji]

How unfortunate! One of our coaches played at Butler, I'm sure this news will be disappointing.

Do yall think that for many schools lacrosse would be among the first to go, if cuts had to be made in the athletic departments?

[John Paul]

Depends on the school. At a school where lacrosse is established as a top-tier sport like Syracuse, Hopkins or Virginia (and quite a few others), no way. At some others where lacrosse is not so prevelant, possibly. The general trend to add lacrosse rather than cut it will continue, despite ocassional setbacks like Butler last week.

More relavent right now: is men's lacrosse being added at the college varsity level at a rate that is reflective of the growth of the game at the high school and youth level? Answer: No.

[horn17]

JP-

Do you think that the level of growth of D2 and D3 programs have an effect on this as well - as in the loss of D1 programs???

Just a question, you seem quite informed on these situations. I was wondering with the steady increase of these smaller programs, that usually add them for enrollment , and tution issues. I know a many number of the smaller universities are adding it due to the growth at those levels - youth and high school. Those institutions are trying to appeal to the player to attend those schools, as opposed to the larger state universities - look at the schools adding programs in Tenn, Utah, Missouri, Indiana, and even more schools in Michigan again. Are we starting to see the trend that the D2 and D3 programs are going to continue to thrive for the next 4-5 years and continue to grow, while the D1 numbers continue to shrink?

On a side note - I know a couple of guys who went to Butler from my HS and other teams just for the lacrosse altogether....it will be intresting to see if OSU, and ND benefit from this anymore from the Michigan/Ohio recruits.

[Sonny]

In a side note - I know a couple of guys who went to Butler from my HS and other teams just for the lacrosse altogether....it will be intresting to see if OSU, and ND benefit from this anymore from the Michigan/Ohio recruits.

I haven't looked at Butler's current roster to see where all their kids are from, but I think that large, competitive MCLA teams will benefit as these kids start looking for a new home - Midwest schools like Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Oakland, Pittsburgh, etc.

[John Paul]

Probably not Sonny. Most of these guys will be looking for varsity opportunities. Most of their impact players are east coast guys. You might see one or two on MCLA teams in the future.

I would think D2 and D3 growth would ultimately help D1 growth, but real D1 growth is still a long way off. You'll continue to see new D2 and D3 programs. I believe D1 will grow in the long run, but in the short run the numbers may drift back slightly or stay about the same. In the last ten years D1 has lost Butler, Boston College, Radford and Michigan State. In the same time period D1 has added Bellarmine, Robert Morris and St. John's.

[Rob Graff]

And, with respect JP, adding St. Johns is really a zero sum gain, as lax had been there in the 1980's and had been dropped.

[horn17]

Probably not Sonny. Most of these guys will be looking for varsity opportunities. Most of their impact players are east coast guys. You might see one or two on MCLA teams in the future.

I agree with you here as well. Most of these players will look to continue to their careers at the NCAA level. Usually the coaching staff will be the first to start to relocate, and probaly take a couple guys here and there. The coaches will also probaly help some of the players find a fit for them if at all possible. I think you will see a couple trickle down, but this will be primarly your Fresh/Soph non standouts (and by this I mean your role players - and no negativity intended by this statement). Here's a question that I'm not sure about though, will they still have to file for a release before they can transfer from one program to another, or because its a cut program, do they not have to go through the normal transfer requirements per the NCAA?

Its just a shame to see it happen, for any program, club or varsity at any level....

[John Paul]

Right Rob. And I forgot, also lost Gannon. And Mercyhurst dropped from D1 to D2.

They would have to get a release if they wanted to transfer right now, but that may be impossible because it's so late in most semesters. Otherwise, once the program is done in June - no release necessary.

[PigPen]

And, with respect JP, adding St. Johns is really a zero sum gain, as lax had been there in the 1980's and had been dropped.

The original lax player rape scandal school.

[Zeuslax]

horn 17 wrote:

I agree with you here as well. Most of these players will look to continue to their careers at the NCAA level. Usually the coaching staff will be the first to start to relocate, and probaly take a couple guys here and there. The coaches will also probaly help some of the players find a fit for them if at all possible.

I know a few coaches have already starting the process of contacting their players. It would be interesting to see if any of the players decide to stick it out academically.