Historic 2008 Election?

[Beta]

We all don't use police/fire services equally, but we all foot the bill and rightfully so. It's for the betterment of our society.

[Sonny]

We all don't use police/fire services equally, but we all foot the bill and rightfully so. It's for the betterment of our society.

Those are things we can't do for ourselves. Those don't fall under personal responsibility like caring for or feeding yourself.

[Beta]

We all don't use police/fire services equally, but we all foot the bill and rightfully so. It's for the betterment of our society.

Those are things we can't do for ourselves. Those don't fall under personal responsibility like caring for or feeding yourself.

Correct, and we can't perform surgery on ourselves, fix broken bones, fix a dislocated shoulder, etc. Im not saying the govt should feed us...but our health and well-being puts more $$$ in their pocket so at the very sake of good business they should at least try to keep us alive to make money.

[Campbell]

With regard to my previous post:

The President's Proposal Would Shift Federal Funding To Help The Uninsured Buy Private Insurance And Take More Ownership Of Their Health Care. The Federal government now pays many of the health care bills of the uninsured through a complex mix of subsidies and payments to health care providers, with the result that billions of taxpayer dollars are spent inefficiently. The health care system needs to be transformed in a way that avoids costly and unnecessary medical visits and emphasizes upfront, affordable private health insurance options. Americans should "own" their own health plan, and money should follow the person rather than the institution.

from the Whitehouse:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/stateoftheunion/2007/initiatives/healthcare.html

[Kyle Berggren]

Lets take a look at the flipside of the coin... Do we foot the bill for the stomach stapling & diabetes medication for the millions of critically obese Americans we have? How about folks that keep shooting up, using meth, coke, abusing pills... Do we pay for their rehab?

I'm honestly trying to jump sides here, my life would be easier. I live in a blue state, & I'd get fewer headaches from my friends & family if I could sympathize more with the other side.

The barriers to entry in the healthcare industry are huge, and I wouldn't necessarily blame the hospitals for the cost, they're just playing the game. The Tax Code encourages it, insurance companies do as well, our litigious society helps add to the risk, & patents on helpful drugs do the same. I do believe our high health care costs are result of many problems in our culture, not the problem.

[Sonny]

We all don't use police/fire services equally, but we all foot the bill and rightfully so. It's for the betterment of our society.

Those are things we can't do for ourselves. Those don't fall under personal responsibility like caring for or feeding yourself.

Correct, and we can't perform surgery on ourselves, fix broken bones, fix a dislocated shoulder, etc. Im not saying the govt should feed us...but our health and well-being puts more $$$ in their pocket so at the very sake of good business they should at least try to keep us alive to make money.

Again, it reverts back to personal responsibility. If I need a surgery, I should be able to care for myself. I shouldn't have the power of the government to force you to open your wallet to pay for my own personal medical needs.

Putting aside the actual issue of whether or not the Constitution enables the government to rob Peter to pay Paul to provide "cradle to grave" medical care, food stamps, etc. for those that cannot or will not provide for themselves -- So many people want to give up that responsibility to the government. That is sad on many different levels - most specifically the government is very much inefficient and does so very few things well.

Give it about 10 years in the work force Beta, get married, start a family. - Keep track of how much of your own hard earned money goes to Uncle Sam every pay day. Me thinks you will be singing a different tune.

[Tim Whitehead]

... and I'm not saying it's unreasonable to expect help, but who should get to pay for it? or sacrifice for it?

I don't want that other person/family from your office to go without a cast when it's needed, but I struggle with how to pay for it. So many of us go to the doctor when it's not needed, Canada averages over 4 months of waiting time to see a doctor (from Tim's wikipedia link). Now, I strongly doubt that when wait times jumped, morbidity rates dropped significantly. I realize there must be a shortage of doctors in Canada as well, but 4 months is ineffective.

For instance, I have the luxury of knowing a doctor that specializes in sports injuries. As I keep playing with the HS kids & College kids, I seem to get hurt more often. I always have him check me out when I am injured (quite often), but then again, he's a friend. I wouldn't have gone to the doctor for more than one of these dozen injuries if I was paying the bill in a way other than buying him a drink, lunch, or Seahawks tickets. I don't like the idea of me paying those bills, let alone forcing someone else to sacrifice their monies to do the same.

A little note on that 4 month waiting period...

This would be for elective surgeries, non-essential surgeries, things like that. I've never known anybody that's had to wait that long. And people that need to have a brain tumour removed aren't waiting. People are getting the surgeries that they need. If I need shoulder surgery to play lacrosse, I can wait. If I want to pay to have it done sooner, I can always go to the States and get it done there.

You should also keep in mind that the data referenced in wikipedia comes from the Fraser Institute, a very right wing think tank that isn't a big fan f public health...

[Beta]

Give it about 10 years in the work force Beta, get married, start a family. - Keep track of how much of your own hard earned money goes to Uncle Sam every pay day. Me thinks you will be singing a different tune.

Oh I already know how much goes, I've gone as far to calculate it out and it's scary. But how much more would it take from each person to have health care provided? Most companies have policies and money is taken out for health insurance so with that cost towards a govt plan...how much more would it cost?

If I give X dollars now to health insurance...how much would be added Y to have national coverage???

It pains me to imagine that any system that could provide a lot of good be very inefficient due to incompetence.

[Sonny]

But how much more would it take from each person to have health care provided?

Whatever is estimated, triple it. The government has never voluntarily ended any tax system and a politician has never found a tax he didn't like.

[Beta]

But how much more would it take from each person to have health care provided?

Whatever is estimated, triple it. The government has never voluntarily ended any tax system and a politician has never found a tax he didn't like.

Triple it?! Ill amputate before I pay that much more.

[Brent Burns]

Very sure that our health insurance plans would not cover people if they eat too much caffeniated doughnuts:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070126/ap_ ... _doughnuts

[OAKS]

Again, it reverts back to personal responsibility. If I need a surgery, I should be able to care for myself. I shouldn't have the power of the government to force you to open your wallet to pay for my own personal medical needs.

I'm still not buying it. Why not make fire response a personal responsibility in that case as well. If you need a fire put out, take care of it yourself. Pay the fire department to put it out. If I'm responsible enough to have fire alarms and extinguishers in most of my rooms, keep the electrical system in my house up to date, avoid candles, etc., why should I pay to fix other people's misfortune? I just don't see the difference between a fire, police, or medical emergency.

[CATLAX MAN]

The difference is that a fire can spread to other buildings around it and therefore is a general safety hazard. Same thing goes for protecting the public safety with police; crime is a threat not only for the person committing the crime but also for all those that could be affected. The need for medical attention is limited to the person who requires it.

[OAKS]

The plague? Ebola? SARS? West Nile? Those can spread around as well and are a general safety hazard.

[Kyle Berggren]

Yup, you're correct... & we fight the black plague & SARS as a world... We don't however pay for your cast because it can spread to your neighbor.