Historic 2008 Election?

[Tim Whitehead]

What do you guys think of this system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

[Sonny]

If Medical Coverage is a right...

"IF" is the key part of that statement.

I'd like one of my left-leaning friends to show me where in the US Constitution that federal government provided medical coverage is a "right."

We are sufficiently civilized to classify quality health care as a right.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

I realize you wanted something from the constitution. So here you go.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Thanks Adam for staying on topic. I appreciate your response, but disagree with your analysis.

The Right to Life EQUALS the Right for someone else to pay for your healthcare? Borat says nope, nice try. You have the right to live here in America, unhampered by anyone else.

"Promote the General Welfare" EQUALS the you have the power to force someone else to pay for your healthcare?? I don't think the framers of the constitution had that in mind.

America is great, not because of our government, but because we are free to pursue our own interests.

[onpoint]

That makes too much sense to work here, Tim. Take your cooky Canuck ideas back up north! The pharmaceutical companies are too busy getting rich off other peoples problems to ever give up control of the drug industry.

[Sonny]

That makes too much sense to work here, Tim. Take your cooky Canuck ideas back up north! The pharmaceutical companies are too busy getting rich off other peoples problems to ever give up control of the drug industry.

A larger part of why drugs are so expensive here is due to liability costs Alex. Enable some real tort reform and drug prices would go down dramatically.

Put aside the issue of whether it's the US government's right or obligation to provide health care to American citizens, I think you would tire quickly of the higher Canadian taxes to pay for such a system.

[laxfan25]

I'm personally more of a proponent of the fair-tax, so that people are taxed for consumption/use not income.

That's why this is one of the most unfair tax proposals - it is very regressive! If you are forced to spend all of your income to support yourself in even a minimal way - you are being taxed at a much higher rate than someone that can support themselves on just a fraction of their total income.
By the way, my co-pay, or employee portion of the health care coverage provided by my workplace, is approximately $700 a month. Now assume you are a parent that has just been laid off and has to buy COBRA coverage and pay the entire amount out of pocket, and you'll find it's a bit more than they are paying for beer.

[Tim Whitehead]

Put aside the issue of whether it's the US government's right or obligation to provide health care to American citizens, I think you would tire quickly of the higher Canadian taxes to pay for such a system.

Most Canadians haven't, why would Alex?

And people keep discussing that it's the government paying for someone else's health care, or Kyle paying for someone else's healthcare. If people are paying for socialized healthcare as part of their taxes, then we're ALL paying for health care (assuming we all pay taxes). It's still the people paying, it's just the you pool it.

Myself, being a pretty healthy person, I do not mind that I probably put more into healthcare than I get out of it. It's still nice to know that no matter what happens, I will be covered in the future.

[Jester]

Sonny,

Doesn't assuming that real tort reform would lower the costs for health care mean that drug companies would essentially say "Hey, costs are going down for us, we should pass that savings along and not derive greater profits from it." Tort reform isn't a bad thing by any stretch, but I think it would be like curing the cold of a person with lung cancer.

Adam, I can't agree we are that civilized. Just imagine if supermarkets stopped getting shipments for a week or so. However, the role of government for providing for the common welfare does come into play when the market fails its citizens, like it is now. The more people on an insurance plan to spread costs around, the less it costs for everyone. If a provider has 60 million people on the plan, it will be dirt cheap to run, and the government can provide that option to cover the gap without requiring enrollment.

[Kyle Berggren]

If the money is spent, it's taxed, if I'm spending 100k/year to live, I'm taxed on 100k.... You spend 30k, you're taxed on 30k... You buy a $6 billion dollar plane, you're taxed on that $6 billion dollar plane.

Your solution seems to be everyone should pitch in & support each other... but you make more than me so you pitch in more... I don't like that at all. I don't make $100k a year, far from it. This is a lower middle class guy talking about doing it this way because I see it as fair & simple.

As far as health care costs go, I'm actually licensed to sell health care insurance to businesses & individuals, & very familiar with the costs. COBRA is great for laid off employees with major medical issues, it means that can retain coverage but it isn't cheap. There are many other alternatives, at a fraction of the cost. If you had to sacrifice something to pay for it is that terrible? Should your employer or neighbor be forced (and the key is forced) to pay for it?

I can see your point that it would be great if everyone had coverage, & people with more chipped in more... But that's not a Right or something that should be expected. I love to chip into causes I believe in, I donate more than I should... & due to my work I know a lot of clients that donate quite a bit more than me (some at 30% of their income). The vast majority of them feel the same way, don't force me to pay for you to take advantage of the system & I'll gladly help you out. That's why we have not for profit organizations.

[Sonny]

I'm personally more of a proponent of the fair-tax, so that people are taxed for consumption/use not income.

That's why this is one of the most unfair tax proposals - it is very regressive!

Under the FairTax plan: If everyone paid the same percentage for consumption - All Americans would be treated the exact same. Policians from either side of the aisle could no longer pit economic classes against each other or try to buy votes with manipulating the tax code. There would be no Federal Income Tax forms to fill out. (April 15th would become just another day for lacrosse! Hooray!)

It is clear not Regressive, as all Americans would receive a rebate on basic goods and services (i.e. poverty level):
http://www.fairtax.org/fairtax/about.htm

[StrykerFSU]

Does anyone know exactly why health care costs are so high? We all seem to agree that they are too high but the blame is being scattered all over the place.

Is it the evil pharm corporations? Is it the sky rocketing cost of med/mal insurance? Is it the uninsured jamming emergency rooms? I for one pay over $2000 a year for health insurance as required by FSU, that's nearly 10% of my annual income for those scoring at home. Maybe next year I'll get a tax credit.

Before we talk about raising taxes, let's make sure there is a functioning system in place that will eliminate waste and make sure everyone is paying their fair share.

[scooter]

Does anyone know exactly why health care costs are so high? We all seem to agree that they are too high but the blame is being scattered all over the place.

Is it the evil pharm corporations? Is it the sky rocketing cost of med/mal insurance? Is it the uninsured jamming emergency rooms? I for one pay over $2000 a year for health insurance as required by FSU, that's nearly 10% of my annual income for those scoring at home. Maybe next year I'll get a tax credit.

Before we talk about raising taxes, let's make sure there is a functioning system in place that will eliminate waste and make sure everyone is paying their fair share.

malpractice insurance is a big reason why, we live in a very lawsuit condusive country, so if even the littlest things go wrong in a hospital, it could end up costing lots of money. The insurance companies who insure hospitals and doctors need to make sure they get theirs, and by charging the hospitals tons of money, the hospitals in turn charge money to the patients to get theirs.

Ill talk to my mom sometime in the future...she's quite well versed in this subject, being she is in the healthcare field

[Kyle Berggren]

Well I think we can agree Healthcare is a make or break issue for most of us....

Another reason it's so expensive is the actual tax code. This is my brain trying to show a reasonable example @ 11pm so take it for what it's worth. It's not exactly how it works, but the concept is there...

For instance, most hospitals bill an exorbitant amount over what the insurance companies will pay. They make the majority of their money from insurance companies, & don't give you the uninsured the same fee (I'm still not sure how this is legal, I can't justify it), they charge you the giant amount. Now either you pay it & the hospital wins, or you don't, & the hospital wins... If you don't pay it, they write off the exorbitant amount.

[Campbell]

Please replace promote with have everyone pay for you & we've got a deal. Bottom line, catastrophic Health Care coverage for many young people (which means deductible of $5k, $1 million limit) is less than $70 month... What do you spend on beer, starbucks, movies, magazines, make-up, bling? That figure is high, my coverage, which is above & beyond what my company provides is $56. FYI, they offer discounts for prepaying.

A $5k deductible, for $70 a month now thats a bargain.

As far as grocers not making any money, go ask a journeyman (Union) checkout clerk what they make & you'll hear an amazing $17/hour!!!

Yes the mighty Union, god love 'em, just not in Texas.

As for why should churches & other not-for-profits not pay taxes? How about many (not all, some are scams, & I'm thinking Scientology, etc.) are trying to provide the community with value & service, while not trying to make a profit.

I'm all for non-profits, just using it as an example of how they get special treatment under the tax code.

...I'm not a fan of giving someone something they can provide for themselves. No I don't want to deny anyone medical care, but I don't want to pay for someone that simply decided it wasn't as important as going to the bar.

The fact is a lot of people just can't afford health care, and I don't mean $5k deductible healthcare for catastrophic illnesses. It is the day to day health care that many Americans need for sick children, occasional doctor visits, affordable prescriptions, etc. I know a lot of people without health care that went to college and work 40 hours a week and just can't afford it, and not because they are blowing their money at the bars every weekend. Just this last fall I blew out my ankle on the job and had to get a walking cast. It ended up costing me about $500 out of pocket. Now that just meant the wife and I had to be a little more thrifty for a few months. But other people in my company with the same health coverage that make considerably less than me would have been worse off.

[Kyle Berggren]

... and I'm not saying it's unreasonable to expect help, but who should get to pay for it? or sacrifice for it?

I don't want that other person/family from your office to go without a cast when it's needed, but I struggle with how to pay for it. So many of us go to the doctor when it's not needed, Canada averages over 4 months of waiting time to see a doctor (from Tim's wikipedia link). Now, I strongly doubt that when wait times jumped, morbidity rates dropped significantly. I realize there must be a shortage of doctors in Canada as well, but 4 months is ineffective.

For instance, I have the luxury of knowing a doctor that specializes in sports injuries. As I keep playing with the HS kids & College kids, I seem to get hurt more often. I always have him check me out when I am injured (quite often), but then again, he's a friend. I wouldn't have gone to the doctor for more than one of these dozen injuries if I was paying the bill in a way other than buying him a drink, lunch, or Seahawks tickets. I don't like the idea of me paying those bills, let alone forcing someone else to sacrifice their monies to do the same.

[Campbell]

... and I'm not saying it's unreasonable to expect help, but who should get to pay for it? or sacrifice for it?

I don't want that other person/family from your office to go without a cast when it's needed, but I struggle with how to pay for it. So many of us go to the doctor when it's not needed, Canada averages over 4 months of waiting time to see a doctor (from Tim's wikipedia link). Now, I strongly doubt that when wait times jumped, morbidity rates dropped significantly. I realize there must be a shortage of doctors in Canada as well, but 4 months is ineffective.

I don't really disagree with you Kyle, finding a way to pay for it is tough. But the fact remains that many hard working Americans and their children don't have health insurance because of the high cost or they choose not to buy it. Maybe Bush's plan is not the answer, and Canada's system just reaks of the failures of big government bureaucracy, which we already have through Medicare and Medicaid. What we do need though is a system whereby the competition for health care consumers is increased to allow for more parity in our free market, so that the price comes down without diminishing the higher level of service a competitive market can foster.

One thing that has only been mentioned is the cost of treating individuals without insurance at hospitals. If someone shows up to an emergency room they cannot be refused service regardless of insurance, at least I think that is the law in Texas. Who eats those costs? The taxpayers do or the hospital does. Even if someone has a basic insurance plan the hospital is likely to get some money.

Another thing is that a tax break for buying health insurance is good for the middle class that already has health insurance. Many people work for companies or government agencies that offer mediocre health insurance plans. My company's philosophy is they want to pay for all of our insurance and half of our dependents. That is great, but with insurance rates rising every year I have seen my deductible go from $500 four years ago to $1000 now and that is just the basic part of what I may owe after surgery, PT or whatever. I would be happy to pay extra for my health insurance, subsidized by my company, to get better coverage. Where I see a tax break helping is that it will encourage people to do just that, upgrading or augmenting their insurance as needed without losing as much of their income. The insurance companies see more money in the end which would be a boon for private health care.

Overall I think it needs to be a plan that stimulates cheaper health care costs through private industry. The government does this all the time in private industry, why not put that money in the hands of the consumer and let us make the decision, a kind of social libertarian economic policy. So anyway, I have kind of rambled through this post, but I hope I was relatively coherent.