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Postby laxer818 on Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:09 am

woulax23 wrote:i disagree with the idea that smaller private schools will be able to compete over the next five to ten years with teams like western and southern oregon, who are public, which makes them cheaper and easier to get into. i know that two guys are coming to our school for sure who are pleased because it is a public school in oregon with a team besides u of o or osu. i guess im not saying they wont compete, but they will have a more difficult job in recruiting


I know this post was written eons ago, but nevertheless, here's why woulax23's argument suffers:

Schools like Whitman attract people from across the U.S., including the East Coast. Whitman in particular is a top-tier liberal arts school, offers students many outdoor opportunities, and will basically provide most people with an excellent college experience. While many out-of-staters flock to Whitman each year, no one in their right mind would travel all the way from, say, Maryland to attend SOU or WOU. Now, I don't mean to knock these schools when I write this. Rather, my point is that there are a hundred SOUs and WOUs across this country--why go all the way out west when someone can get the same education at home and pay in-state tuition? (Plus, can you imagine some dude wearing a pink polo shirt with the collar popped up, strutting around SOU or WOU? That kind of behavior barely passes muster in Walla Walla, for crying out loud.)

Bottom line: Schools like Whitman, Linfield, PLU, etc. (and to a lesser extent, Montana) attract people outside of the West Coast/PNW. Thus, while these schools may have to pick from a smaller pool of players, they will typically enjoy substantially more favorable ratios of outstanding players to newbies. This has been the case in the past, and I predict that it will continue be the case over the next few years as well.

Now, the key variable in all of this, especially for Whitman (and I'm speaking from experience here) is to get these guys from MD, NY, CT, etc. to actually play when they arrive on campus. For instance, we had an absolutely sick attackman from Maryland a few years back who, had he played, would have rivaled Sadler for top attackman in the league (and yes, Sadler was the top attackman in the league, lest we forget, even when Whitman played in the A division). Unfortunately, the hippies got to him, and before you knew it, he was walking around wearing hemp necklaces and talking about taking solitary hikes in the wilderness to find himself--a travesty in every sense of the word. After much pleading, we finally got him to commit to play. He scored something like 5 goals in the lone game in which he played (after not touching his stick for almost a year and without a single practice), before he broke our hearts and left the team for good.

God damned hippies.
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Postby Ryan Hanavan on Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:46 pm

laxer818 wrote:God damned hippies.


I just donated my pink polo shirt to the local goodwill, but I picked up a new one while I was back in NY over break! As for the hemp necklaces...Put a mountain next to your campus and we will come...promote the sport to the local high schools and youth of the region and hopefully watch some local stock rise.

I'm a NY transplant but my goal is to convince Moscow/Pullman/Lewiston area high schools to join the Spokane/Couer d'Alene (northern Idaho) programs. How many of these local boys are going to end up coming to their local colleges? Probably a larger percent than the ones that will leave to go somewhere else. Building more youth programs is simply planting seeds, they will produce some great talent (less the sweet pink polo). There are hundreds (if not more) kids in the region that could become all stars in lacrosse but might never even know.
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Postby Kyle Berggren on Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:56 pm

Ryan, what you say makes sense, & I believe a lot of it is true. I'd replace PLU with UPS (PLU doesn't recruit students well out of state), they've simply built a program.

Your viewpoint makes it sound as though the SOU & WOU of the world are at a disadvantage. I don't think so, I'd say they're in a great spot to attract talent. Most kids at those schools, & schools like CWU & WWU attract kids from their home state. Well, lacrosse is growing out here, more & more talent poors into those schools. A small handful of kids make it to Ivy programs with scholarships, the rest stay "local."

Oregon lacrosse has had a lot of success in growing both the sport & the level of talent. I work with a HS All-Star team, & I'm around the Oregon team quite a bit at tournaments. The kids can play. While it's not a traditional hotbed, they travel to Southern California & go 4-1 I believe. They were the same @ a Seattle tournament. These kids go to Oregon,
OSU, WOU, & SOU. West coast kids have one big advantage over the east, the fact that we can play all-year round.

As far as Sadler being the best attackmen, he was good, but he was in some pretty illustrious company. Josh Saunders, Ricky Clark (300+ career points), Townsend Hall, & Rick Kladis just to name a few. I played in an All-Star game with Ben & he was no doubt a great player, understood when to pass & when not do, but the best is really pushing it.
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Postby Ryan Hanavan on Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:09 pm

Kyle Berggren wrote:
Your viewpoint makes it sound as though the SOU & WOU of the world are at a disadvantage. I don't think so, I'd say they're in a great spot to attract talent. Most kids at those schools, & schools like CWU & WWU attract kids from their home state. Well, lacrosse is growing out here, more & more talent poors into those schools. A small handful of kids make it to Ivy programs with scholarships, the rest stay "local."



I'm sorry if this is how I came across. I definitely don't want to say any school is at a disadvantage. My greatest hope is that every school, small and large, benefits from the increased interest by younger kids.
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Postby TheBearcatHimself on Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:47 pm

laxer818 wrote:Schools like Whitman attract people from across the U.S., including the East Coast. Whitman in particular is a top-tier liberal arts school, offers students many outdoor opportunities, and will basically provide most people with an excellent college experience. While many out-of-staters flock to Whitman each year, no one in their right mind would travel all the way from, say, Maryland to attend SOU or WOU.


I agree with this almost 100%. Are SOU and WOU at a disadvantage?? Hell no because they get boatloads of instate and Northwest talent, of which there is plenty.

The crux of the big school vs. small school argument is the pool from which they draw. My venerable handless football coach Mr. Speckman here at Willamette explained the situation as such: "All schools recruit from the same pool, it's just at Willamette you have to take 95% of that pool and throw it out the door because of the school's academic requirements." Notre Dame faces this similar scenario in football on a larger more prominent scale.

So basically my point is that at smaller schools you had better damn well make sure you take advantage of the talent in that 5%. Laxer818 is dead on in the fact that at Willamette, and Whitman and UPS we attract students from all over, this is a HUGE advantage over larger more locally based universities (now WAIT, I'm not saying we are better, I'm simply explaining the difference and nuances of our situation, the state schools have the HUGE advantage over attracting local students that don't want to travel far, or as woulax23 said don't want to pay out the nose for school).

So, what you do with your advantages in recruiting is what determines your ability to field a successful team. It is a damn Shame (capital S) that Willamette has not been able to throw more talent on the field with the students from all over we have to choose from. Fortunately, this year we will feature new players from New York, Maine, Illinois, and California. What we do with those players is up to us.
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Postby Ryan Hanavan on Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:05 pm

TheBearcatHimself wrote:
laxer818 wrote:Fortunately, this year we will feature new players from New York, Maine, Illinois, and California. What we do with those players is up to us.


Where in NY?
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Postby laxer818 on Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:36 am

Kyle Berggren wrote:As far as Sadler being the best attackmen, he was good, but he was in some pretty illustrious company. Josh Saunders, Ricky Clark (300+ career points), Townsend Hall, & Rick Kladis just to name a few. I played in an All-Star game with Ben & he was no doubt a great player, understood when to pass & when not do, but the best is really pushing it.


Kyle,

The players you name were all phenomenal players. I've never played against anyone who could stick a shot top-corner with a guy in his face like Clark, and we both know too well what Saunders, Hall, and Kladis could do on the field. The reason why I think Sadler was at the top of the list, though, was that for four years, he carried Whitman, even though every one of our opponents knew that he was the centerpiece of our offense and keyed on him accordingly. Sadler put up excellent numbers year in and year out, even though he faced double- and triple-teams in virtually every game. On a seemingly regular basis, he beat five or six guys on his way to the net, and single-handedly won us a number of games during the two years in which we played together. If Sadler had the type of talent that guys like Clark, Hall, and Kladis had surrounding them at their respective schools, his career numbers would have been even higher. I think you have to take this into consideration.

Of course, none of this matters, as all of these guys but Hall have moved on. Still, it's nice to take a stroll down memory lane, no?

Also, on the point of NW lacrosse talent: I've been down in SoCal for over three years now, and I grew up in the Bay Area. The level of local talent in the NW (both at the high school and collegiate levels) rivals that of any region in California. There are some great young lacrosse players in the NW, particularly in the greater Seattle and Portland areas, and I don't doubt that schools like Oregon, OSU, SOU, WOU, etc. will reap many of the benefits of that talent in the years to come.
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Postby Shaw_88 on Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:37 pm

I'm just curious, what's your opinion for Division A or whatever as far as sleepers?
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Postby Juergy on Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:57 pm

I think that BSU will be a good squad this year. I know that we saw them play at the BSU tournament this year, and they gave Montana a really tough game. I know Montana is a B school, but they could easily make the final four in A. I also know it was fall ball, but Montana brought all their guns from what I could tell.

I think both leagues will be very competetive, except among those at the top. OU and UM are will likely continue as they have in the past. I think below that, everyone has a chance to make noise. I know we are better this year as a team than any year I have been at Whitman but just to make it back to the playoffs we are going to have to play consistently well and work very hard. I think ultimately this is very good for the game out here, and although it was nice back in my freshman and sophomore year to know we were assured a spot, parody makes it more fun for all and brings the league a lot more respect.
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Postby Shaw_88 on Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:02 am

Sweet and I know BSU didn't have all their players at that tourney. I can think of a couple including myself. I played for Whitman ha. BSU has a really young team with a lot of talent, if not this year, we should definitely make some noise in the years to come.
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Postby Juergy on Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:46 pm

When did you play at Whitman?
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Postby Shaw_88 on Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:56 pm

During the Gem State Tourney this year. Ogle asked me to play, I was the tall kid with the maroon helmet.
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Postby Juergy on Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:54 pm

Oh yeah. That was fun.
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Postby TheBearcatHimself on Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:01 pm

Ryan Hanavan wrote:
TheBearcatHimself wrote:
laxer818 wrote:Fortunately, this year we will feature new players from New York, Maine, Illinois, and California. What we do with those players is up to us.


Where in NY?


We have a freshman from Holland High School in South Wales, NY. He plays d-pole and looks legit so far, we will see how he holds up in this rain :D
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Postby Ryan Hanavan on Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:37 am

TheBearcatHimself wrote:
Ryan Hanavan wrote:
TheBearcatHimself wrote:
laxer818 wrote:Fortunately, this year we will feature new players from New York, Maine, Illinois, and California. What we do with those players is up to us.


Where in NY?


We have a freshman from Holland High School in South Wales, NY. He plays d-pole and looks legit so far, we will see how he holds up in this rain :D


Right on, that's just south of where I grew up. I'm an Orchard Park boy (well, old man now). If he's from western NY he should be prepared for the weather. Good luck on the upcoming season!
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