NCLL teams joining MCLA?

[laxdad03]

I understand and agree to some extent (and I am sensitive to Coach Holtz' thoughts, too), but I guess I'd like to hope for (and try to argue for, to the very limited extent our musings might have any real impact) better consideration overall for MCLA people and programs that are successful enough that they arguably bring about an enhanced desire to go Varsity at the school whose program they built up. Again for my education, how successful was (for example) the Women's Navy club program, and how much or little of the Varsity move was fueled by club's success there or in other similar cases?

Also, getting back closer to the origins of this thread, it would seem to me that a major difference between MCLA and NCLL might be precisely that very part of their orientation. I think (but could be wrong, John Paul may jump in here to correct me) that "Virtual Varsity" is a big piece of MCLA teams' philosophy (again, maybe moreso at the top), and may even be another reason for the policy that the MCLA does not have teams at schools who already have a Varsity team. In my limited visibility, top MCLA teams ARE (and WANT very much to be considered as) the SCHOOL team, and may not want the more lax (pun intended) club atmosphere. So if a school with an MCLA team goes Varsity, I'd imagine that the (presumably major) portion of the MCLA organization there that leaned in the Varsity direction might line up with the Varsity team, and those that wanted a club experience could form a more "true club" team, perhaps affiliated with the NCLL or other, which it would seem is more naturally consistent with being a (perhaps less serious, less organized, or whatever) more traditional club team NOT aspiring to be "THE school team" (e.g. "behind" a Varsity team). I don't mean that in any disparaging sense, I know that some NCLL play is at a very good level, I just think it seems more in line with that philosophy.

I'd just like to hope that the Harkins, Lambs, Goodhands, and Holtzs of the world (to whom we owe so much), along with the MCLA players and others who really have the Varsity orientation (and are apparently looking for (and may be worthy of?) something more than the "traditional club" experience), would be considered favorably if/when such a situation were to arise.

[cjwilhelmi]

It seems, though, keeping in mind that Florida State has already announced its intention to go varsity in the coming years as well as the attention BYU is getting after Philadelphia Eagle's Head Coach Andy Reid contacted BYU's AD,

Ok I am out of the loop, what does Andy Reid contacting BYU's AD mean for lacrosse?

[Sonny]

It seems, though, keeping in mind that Florida State has already announced its intention to go varsity in the coming years as well as the attention BYU is getting after Philadelphia Eagle's Head Coach Andy Reid contacted BYU's AD,

Ok I am out of the loop, what does Andy Reid contacting BYU's AD mean for lacrosse?

You need to stay on top of your In the Crease Podcats Corbin. Listen to the podcast interview with BYU Coach Jason Lamb:
http://www.collegelax.us/news.php?actio ... ews&id=887

[cjwilhelmi]

Sorry Sonny, I have been working 50+ hours a week at the Bar and haven't had time to sit down and listen. I dont have an IPod to take with me either.

[laxdad03]

Quick summary from the podcast for the working man's benefit: Reid, a BYU alum, and his family had the opportunity to watch the NCAA Lax Final Four from the Eagles' box at the Linc; after thoroughly enjoying the sport, he reportedly called the BYU AD to ask what to do to get BYU Lacrosse "there".

[cjwilhelmi]

Ah, thanks.

[laxdad03]

No prob. (Sorry, Sonny, maybe I've inadvertently removed some extra motivation to go back and listen to podcasts.) Now maybe, for the growth and benefit of the sport AND those fine folks (organization, teams, and players) that make the MCLA the great thing which it is, if we can just get Coach Reid, the BYU athletic director, and their counterparts and lots of similar people everywhere out to Dallas this May, for example, to see some real high quality MCLA lacrosse...

[John Paul]

Haven't done this in awhile, but you guys are drawing a long post out of me. Sorry.

Sitting here in my hotel room in Baltimore, at event with 1000 other coaches, including most of the "big name" guys, I definitely have some thoughts on this.

First, and I say this all the time, there are only a handful of teams in the MCLA that are truly "virtual varsity." The first and most important step toward that is complete coach control - no student officers at all. Very few club teams, even in the MCLA, have that set-up. In fact, very few schools will even allow it. Another factor is recruiting. Virtual varsity teams are full of players who chose their school with the lacrosse team truly being a large part of their decision process. (It should never, at any level, be the over-riding reason to choose a school, but varsity and virtual varsity teams are not made up of kids who came to the school and then joined the team when they found out about it there.) Third is commitment level. Hard to measure that one, but there is a wide range of commitment levels in the MCLA. The commitment levels amongst NCAA teams do not vary nearly as much.

There is a huge, huge difference between adding varsity sports, especially men's teams, at major D1 schools that have football and smaller D1 schools or schools at the D2 and D3 level. The transition at a D3 school may be much less of a jump if the program is already at a high level as a club.

At major D1 schools, if a sport is to be fully funded and run with excellence in mind, even for those of us who do things as much like a varsity as possible, the change is pretty big in talent level and weekly competition level. However, if there's one thing I've learned from attending all these clinics and conventions, playing against D1, D2 and D3 teams, and trading ideas with friends who coach at the highest levels, it's that we do the exact same things with our players and staffs. We coach technique the same ways. We run the same drills. We use the same terminology. We use the same strategies. We prepare the same way. We do the same things off the field with our guys. In fact, we often do it better. At the highest levels they simply have deeper, more skilled teams. Coaching is coaching. Lacrosse is lacrosse. For some of our coaches the biggest adjustments would be getting used to NCAA regulations and paperwork and the huge jump in time spent recruiting.

I can tell you that at Michigan, one of the premier athletic programs top to bottom in the country, they've added four varsity sports in the past dozen years or so. Women's water polo went outside to hire the coach. Women's soccer went outside because the club team did not have a coach. Women's crew and men's soccer both hired the club coaches, and both are still there. They have both had pretty good success (crew is always highly ranked, and men's soccer made the NCAA quarters only three years into the program). Don't take it for granted that a coach will be replaced or that a club coach can't have success at the varsity level, or even that the school would hire outside the school. Some schools, especially those with great athletic traditions, put an extremely high value on tradition and loyalty, which can often translate to hiring from within the school "family."

As for Stryker's comments about the impact on current club players of adding varsity programs (and even on future club players), his point is completely valid. The answer to that problem lies in your own view of what's good for the sport and also the values you place on what a good varsity program can provide for the people it impacts versus what a typical club program provides. My view on this has changed as the sport has grown. The bottom line is there will never be enough programs and spots, at all levels, for the number of guys who want to play in college. Even at our school we cut and many players don't come out because they know they won't make the team - but they would love to have the opportunity if they could. There are also many players here who would want to play if the team was less virtual varsity, just as there were many here in the past would have played if the program was more serious than it was back then. More varsity programs just shifts the demographic. I'm simply a believer in the things a varsity program can provide much more easily than a club program.

When we talk to our recruits here I am always asked if the school plans on "going D1." I always tell them that we would like to and that it may happen, even during their time here, but that if it did their chances to play for that team or have an impact here would be minimal (we aren't recruiting against Hopkins after all). They come anyway. They understand the implications. However I am confident, because we talk about it, that most of our players and alumni would love to see varsity lacrosse at Michigan.

Finally, there are a lot of rumors out there about schools adding varsity programs. If you want to know the truth call the athletic department or look for an official release. Don't automatically believe what you read on a message board. Some of the schools mentioned on this thread are nowhere near adding a varsity program.

[laxdad03]

Thank you, Coach Paul, for your long (and very good) post. I for one always like to see them, they can often set a lot of things straight. (And I think there is agreement, a lot of these things won't be happening on any significant scale for a while at least, but it is still an interesting discussion to have.) Pretty much everything you say resonates well, you just additionally have a good (and also authoritatively-based) way to say it, which makes your posts particularly valuable. Please keep up your great work, with our gratitude.

[bste_lax]

I smell a nice 5-6 page thread brewing with a possible long-winded but great reply by JP.

Honestly, am I Nostradamus or am I Nostradamus?

[cjwilhelmi]

All Hail Bensondamus!

[laxdad03]

Ah yes, oh great bste one; but since the prediction was public, did the prediction itself play a significant role in "drawing him out"? (In any case, nice job.) Besides, we needed another post or two to get it to your fifth page...maybe this one will help.

[TheNino57]

Finally, there are a lot of rumors out there about schools adding varsity programs. If you want to know the truth call the athletic department or look for an official release. Don't automatically believe what you read on a message board. Some of the schools mentioned on this thread are nowhere near adding a varsity program.

Isn't that the truth! I had heard rumors that St. Martin's College (Lacey, WA) was forming a varsity lacrosse program. I contacted the AD and he told me that they were looking at forming a club team to compete in the PNCLL. At the Conference's AGM, there wasn't any representation from St. Martin's College. No new team even applied for entry.

[Zeuslax]

I always like this discussion because there's so many different discussion points. If you look at the schools that have added teams there wasn't previous (we have one now in Utah) MCLA teams in place. The club team at the school didn't get so "big" that going varsity was the natural progression. It was about raising the profile and diversifying the student population. The other lacrosse related attributes came after that. It sure wasn't that the school saw an opportunity to make money off of the team.

As a coach at an institution with aspirations to make the jump (No time frame may I add or anywhere near close to happening) it's interesting to see the progression internally. It's slow and methodical and there's a whole host of institution specific challenges that need addressed. It's important to note that not everyone is for it. It's going to be different at each university.

I think it's important to note that the Michigan's, BYU's and FSU's of the world are not going to do it the same way that Robert Morris did it at the D1 level.

[Danny Hogan]

I think it's important to note that the Michigan's, BYU's and FSU's of the world are not going to do it the same way that Robert Morris did it at the D1 level.

definatley, somewhere like sonoma would be a spot that i think would make the jump (to whatever division they are) and could use a lot of pieces from the club team.