Isn't this a no brainer?

[Kyle Berggren]

Kyle,
I believe that all taxes are recorded under the revenue side, including estate taxes.

I wasn't trying to make the point in that regard, that's a different story all together. More of a point that we take in billions of dollars more than what we are budgeting for, & we still come out behind. No one knows how many dollars are going to come from IRA's & other qualified plans over the RMD's, nor are they aware of who's going to die & have to sell their family farm to pay a 1 million dollar tax bill. That's just gravy, & we spend that and more...

[Zeuslax]

The percentages are fine to look at, but our government isn't a person, it's a business & should be ran as such. Corporations don't say, well, you get 1% of revenue, you get 2% and leave it at that.... (yes I know that does happen occasionally, but typically its a dollar budget). We're spending money we don't have, & spreading good around the world, with money we don't have, while our citizens want more support from our government, it should be an outrage. We're financially unresponsible.

I also donate a much larger percentage than what we're talking about, but I do it by choice. Don't take my money from me, then give it to someone else, all the while wanting to take more of my money.

I think you're taking the point a little out of context. Your point is very valid and I agree in many respects. However, believe me, I'm not arguing that we should be giving more money in foreign aid while our own house is in disarray. The point is we spend very little in foreign aid and that very often the money provided in this form can be a very effective tool for our people, government, and our policies. Often, foreign aid is more effective in accomplishing our goals than anything else that we can do! For example, money for doctors, food, teaching engineering, etc......

Remember how embarrassed people were when Cuba offered doctors and Mexico offered water for Katrina victims?

[Sonny]

The point is we spend very little in foreign aid and that very often the money provided in the form of foreign aid is a very effective tool for our people, government, and our policies.

How can you logically argue that point when we give more real dollars then any other country (officially)? Not to mention the fact that our country's residents are the first to answer the call when disasters strike across the world like the Tsunami?

Remember how embarrassed people were when Cuba offered doctors and Mexico offered water for Katrina victims?

right.... How many people are starving right now at this very moment in Castro's Communist Cuba? All they were doing is trying to score political points. Nothing more, nothing less.

[laxfan25]

Honest question for ya laxfan25.... How much of my paycheck should I be able to keep each week? And how much should go to taxes?

Your fair share, based on your ability to pay, the same as every other taxpayer. Is that 5%? 20%? 35%? Hard as it might be to believe, we are low on the global tax scale, with rates from 0 - 35%. (Here's a chart if you want to compare http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree) Our upper range is not as high as many, and a big difference is that most countries have a substantial VAT or GST on spending.
One problem is that the extremely well off (and the extremely well off are EXTREMELY well off - a look at the distribution of income and distribution of wealth in the US would likely shock you) pay much less than one would expect, since they have teams of accountants and financial advisors that take advantage of tax breaks and shelters to protect their income - breaks that you and I can't avail ourselves of. They would also be VERY happy to eliminate the estate tax, since then all of their wealth - whether it was gained tax-free or not, would be passed on to their heirs. There is already an estate tax exemption that will more than protect you and I, but it should definitely be kept on estates of two million or more.

Of course, when congress is basically made up of millionaires (given the cost to run a campaign, its no wonder) there is no one in there looking out for the common man's interests -although they'll campaign like they do.
A flat tax is not the answer - it is disproportionate to those on the lower end. A fair progressive tax, with the elimination or reduction of unproductive tax breaks or shelters, is the fairest method.
A balanced budget for the Fed gov't is also a good idea on the surface, but it can be pointed out that during the Depression, it was massive gov't deficit spending that kept the country alive.
I think a policy of "Pay as you go", where tax cuts or spending increases have to be paid for is a start. It's the way each of us has to live at home - why not do the same in the gov't.
Now if you want lower taxes, you can also reduce expenditures. That is often not a popular option, since you're taking away something from somebody. I think things like capping Social Security for those that are not really in need would help, since that is a huge part of gov't spending. I know I'm not planning on living on my Social Security check.

No one likes taxes, including myself. But the concept of a government providing for the greater good is noble, and needs to be financed, by all, by their fair share. Don't let them divide the middle and working class by fighting amongst ourselves while the elite make off with all the money!

[Zeuslax]

right.... How many people are starving right now at this very moment in Castro's Communist Cuba? All they were doing is trying to score political points. Nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly! It's very effective.

[Sonny]

right.... How many people are starving right now at this very moment in Castro's Communist Cuba? All they were doing is trying to score political points. Nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly! It's very effective.

It wasn't in my opinion. Most people in the free world (with a clue) should be able to see through it, as a mere political ploy.

[LaxRef]

We've been sending aid to many countries for a while now and even in the countries we send it to we're "The Great Devil". I don't think there's anything this country as a whole can do to make people like us. Jealousy turns into Hate and that'll never change.

Did it ever occur to you that some foreigners hate our government because of the bad things it sometimes does, such as starting a war under false pretenses? It seems to me that to think our country never does anything wrong and that it's all everyone else's fault is incredibly naiive.

[Kyle Berggren]

"I place economy among the first and most important of republic virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared."

You are correct, we spend too much. None of us like taxes & the 'fair tax' 23% consumption tax may be the answer to keep the rich folks from walking away without paying much in taxes. What's aggravating is that we spend money we don't have, & we continue to give money away, money that we don't have. I feel like we're one giant social program, we have no plan on how to actually pay back our national debt, & no one cares. Here's a few billion dollars, we'll pay for it later.

All of these immigration issues really stem back to money, who pays for it, the social programs, & who isn't paying their share. In the long run, we may want to leave a legacy as a country by giving & helping other countries, but we need to help ourselves. When the country was formed, we were so worried about paying our own way, we had a cap on national debt. We just voted to increase it again... Why? so we can give more to those in need? That's noble, but not our job as a country. US Citizens come first. If we want to give & help, we'll create a way to do it ourselves.

[Hackalicious]

How much aid do we provide the UN and other countries right now?? We already provide the lion's share of international aid annually. Immigration problems aren't going to go away if we provide even more aid.

According to The Economist, in 1999, the US gave $8-9 billion in foreign aid. Much of that comes with strings requiring it be used to purchase American arms, so is essentially a tax giveaway to the defense industry. A big chunk goes to Israel and Egypt. This accounts for 0.1% of our GDP.

In comparison, Japan gave $15 billion in foreign aid accounting for 0.35% of GDP.

France? $5 billion and 0.38% of GDP.

Spunky little Denmark gives 1% of its GDP as foreign aid.

http://www.economist.com/markets/displa ... _ID=523567

Granted, this are only government foreign aid and does not include private aid. This link (of unkown quality) shows our per capita private donations compared to other industrialized countries: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html

[Jester]

To take this back to the original question of the thread, yes, its a no-brainer that landlords shouldn't be allowed to rent to illegal immigrants. Employers also shoudn't be allowed to employ them given that they are illegal.

However, they shouldn't be illegal. Whoever said they just drain our economy by sending money home and using our resources and services is missing the larger reason they are here. Of course they are using resources and sending money home, but they are also renting and living and working here, fueling our economy and this debate. If anyone thinks they they are not huge numbers of white people who don't actually contribute a full 25-35 percent of their income in taxes, you are completely fooling yourself.

Second note, government is NOT a business. It serves a different function through a different method. No business in the world is interested in the public good (nor could/should they be) beyond the PR point that helps sell their products. That's why we have public (state, city, county, federal), private (business), and non-profit sectors.

Lastly, Sonny, the thing that laxfan is trying to get across that is not wrong, but merely a fundamental point of disagreement between you, is that we have the ability to do so much more, so why don't we? Yes, we do the most, but in terms of what we have, its embarrasingly low. Its comparable to the knowledge that just about anyone who has waited tables or worked in a bar or coffee shop gains the first month. Generally, the better off the customer, the worse they tip. Poorer people know what its like to need help and not know where to go for it, wealthier don't. That would be us.

[shrekjr]

Medicare/Medicaid costs are soaring with the increase in healthcare costs - how do we rein that in? How do we provide healthcare for the millions that can't afford it? Just let 'em die?

Depends, would we have to cover the burial costs too?

[peterwho]

In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001 — almost a third of what America contributed.

However, this includes only aid from the governmental sector. We, as a nation, give a disproportionately large (relative to other countries) amount of aid through the private sector. In 2001, private charitable giving was $212 billion to organizations, like the American Red Cross, that have large international aid components. The top donors from the article, as a percentage of GNP, are dominated by the aid from governmental sector and have very small private sector components.

[StrykerFSU]

...they shouldn't be illegal...Of course they are using resources and sending money home, but they are also renting and living and working here, fueling our economy and this debate.

I'm interested as to why someone who illegally crosses our border and is undocumented should not be considered illegal. If you violate our borders you break the law and are thus, illegal. Illegal aliens put undue stress on our education system, health care system, legal system, etc. without contributing a single dollar in taxes.

If anyone thinks they they are not huge numbers of white people who don't actually contribute a full 25-35 percent of their income in taxes, you are completely fooling yourself.

Who are these rich, white boogeymen?

Our goverment is not a business but it is also not a charity. It was not created to provide aid to foreign nations but rather to protect the interests of American citizens. I don't see how throwing money at problems in other nations would be successful and help us here any more than throwing money at domestic problems has been, i.e. the Dept. of Education and welfare.

Generally, the better off the customer, the worse they tip.

I've heard all sorts of generalizations from my server friends based on tipping habits but I'll let that lie in deference to message board rules. I will take issue with the analogy. A tip or gratuity is additional payment for a service provided. It's intent was to reward outstanding service but has since come to be just another cost for customers. Foreign aid paid by the U.S. government, on the other hand, is not payment for a service. It is charity and as with any charity you should be sure that the money is being used for its stated purpose before donating.

[Jester]

Perhaps my phrasing was poor, but I think you chose to take things a touch more literally than was necessary. First, yes, people who emigrate without permission are illegal, they have violated the laws of our nation. That is inarguable. I didn't say anywhere that that was the problem.

However, laws are only laws by virtue of their enforcement and support within the larger framework of a community. That is why we have provision to change them. My point was and is more in line with the need to adjust our immigration policies to fit the situation, not the other way around. Practical realities dictate what sort of laws are in fact binding or not.

Your second point is similarly valid, but I would posit that it helps the interests of American citizens to help other countries. I didn't specifically say that we should throw more money at other countries, but help them, absolutely. It is a broad word that can be understood many ways. I did lay out the notion that there is a public, private for-profit, and private non-profit. You are right, it is neither for-profit nor a non-profit, but rather public. I do not believe for one single moment that we can fix America, and then move on to the rest of the world out of our magnanimous nature.

The "tip" thing is again being interpreted too narrowly here. "Tip" is a colloquialism. It could be a donation to someone you know is struggling to make ends me, just like a person playing guitar on the street. The sentence that followed it is the one that matters more - Poorer people know what its like to need help and not know where to go for it, wealthier don't.

I am the sort of person who has never followed the letter of the law, but rather the spirit of it, and I will admit, I have paid a great deal more than others who interpret things more strictly. Around tax time, I hold my parents and several of my friends in a great deal of contempt, for they are among the boogeymen of which I speak. I don't judge them bad people for it, since I merely hope for the best of people, but I don't expect it.

[StrykerFSU]

My point was and is more in line with the need to adjust our immigration policies to fit the situation

Are you then saying that we should change our laws so that it is not illegal to sneak across the border and enter this country? Should it be legal for an undocumented Bolivian to live in this country but not an undocumented Jordanian?

I do not feel that the US government has any obligation to provide aid to other nations. Our government has not entered any social contract with the citizens of other nation and I question why our tax dollars should be sent over seas. I do not mean to be confrontational in the least but I have to ask, what aid are you referring to if not financial aid?