Should A Division Teams be Able to play in the B Division?

[Kyle Berggren]

Should a team with Division 1 football (an A Division Team) be able to play in the B division? There's more conversation in the Gem State Recap thread, but please post your comments here.

[Sonny]

Not sure I understand your question -

Division A teams (Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State, Idaho, Boise State) are currently eligible to play in Division B, they just aren't eligible for national post-season or national honors.

It's up to the PNCLL leadership to decide if they want to allow a team to play in Division B. If a Div. A team were to win the PNCLL Div. B conference championship, the conference would forfeit their AQ to Nationals.

You can debate if that is fair or not to the remaining Division B teams. That to me, is the bigger question.

[Band]

I'll bring my argument over here. Firstly, let me preface this by saying that I am not attempting to be disrespectful to anyone, and if I come off that way I apologize.

On to business. A large part of the argument I am hearing against my point is that "back in the day Team X couldn't beat anyone but after awhile they could." That's true and that's cool for them, but the key part of the argument is that it is chronologically based. The league was different years ago when Oregon (I use them because Kyle does) got their start. There was no 2006 Oregon to beat up on the 2000 Oregon. Every program has evolved considerably since that time.

Kyle, you keep asking what teams I am referring to that the league is fostering growth for. The league fosters growth for every team that already has its training wheels off. Thats a good thing. It should be doing that. But it should also have policies in place that allow newer teams catch up. If that means starting new "A division" teams in B division until they have accomplished themselves, then I don't see why we shouldn't be looking at that.

[Band]

Not sure I understand your question -

Division A teams (Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State, Idaho, Boise State) are currently eligible to play in Division B, they just aren't eligible for national post-season or national honors.

It's up to the PNCLL leadership to decide if they want to allow a team to play in Division B. If a Div. A team were to win the PNCLL Div. B conference championship, the conference would forfeit their AQ to Nationals.

You can debate if that is fair or not to the remaining Division B teams. That to me, is the bigger question.

So let's put it in the bylaws that a Division A team playing in Division B can't play in the tournament. That solves that rather quickly and provides additional incentive for that team to build their program and jump up into Division A.

[Kyle Berggren]

Band, in 2000, SFU was around to pound the rest of us. This is from the SFU lacrosse website, but here are their game scores for the season...

SFU 18 UW 2
SFU 23 Whitman 6
SFU 15 WSU 4
SFU 35 GU 4
SFU 21 LMU 2
SFU 18 WWU 5
SFU 17 Stanford 8
SFU 31 OSU 0
SFU 16 Oregon 2

They were 10-0 with 222 goals for & 34 against, they were as dominant as anyone (if not more) in the PNCLL.

Sonny, thank you for clarifying. I tried to put up a quick poll to stop our thread jacking.

[Band]

They were 10-0 with 222 goals for & 34 against, they were as dominant as anyone (if not more) the PNCLL.

Sure, but they were the outlier. Every other team was on the same level.

[Kyle Berggren]

So let's put it in the bylaws that a Division A team playing in Division B can't play in the tournament. That solves that rather quickly and provides additional incentive for that team to build their program and jump up into Division A.

It doesn't work that way, Kyle. Maybe things are different at UPS but here on the Palouse we have found that it is impossible to get anyone to commit to a team unless they believe they are playing for something.

When is it too long for a team to be in the B? do the games they play against the actual B teams count toward the playoff standing? for instance, if you were in the South Division, & won it... does the second place south B division get the 1st round bye? do we forget the games against A division teams for seeding? Do we just re-adjust the divisions every year? or can we try to avoid it & let you take your lumps like everyone else?

[ZagGrad]

I forgot to clarify that we began in Div. B and petitioned to move up.

[Kyle Berggren]

What do other A teams think about this? Do developing teams like Idaho belong in the B? Not, do you want to travel to Idaho... but long term, is there a reason they are not sustainable A team?

[Kyle Berggren]

I forgot to clarify that we began in Div. B and petitioned to move up.

Chris, you also don't have Division 1 football & could easily play in the B if your program wanted too.

[Shawn Carman]

If I have been reading all of Mikes posts correctly, he has a very strong argument. Mike thinks that a new team (or a struggling team) in the A division should first make its presence known in the B division, where they have the opportunity to rebuild and reconstruct their team (Correct Mike).

If that is it, I agree with it. It makes it hard for a team to compete if all the teams that they play drain the moral of a team by beating up on them all the time. Making it (on paper) hard to recruit or showcase a team. Such as a team like team X that moves into the A division and struggles to win a game should have the ability to compete at a lesser level, of their own quality, if that level is a B level or a possible C level.

I believe that the A division should be for the teams that feel they can compete at the next level and not be based on the size of the program but rather the skill or quality of play. And the B division can give new or struggling teams the opportunity to build a program that in time can compete at the A level.

But the only grey area here that I see is that no matter what league or division you are in there will be one team who manages to find its way to the bottom of the pile, where wins seem impossible. And that will never change as long as teams are always gaining new players changing from season to season, because you are only as good as the teams that you play against and it are those losses that come with the wins that make a team better.

[Band]

But the only grey area here that I see is that no matter what league or division you are in there will be one team who manages to find its way to the bottom of the pile, where wins seem impossible. And that will never change as long as teams are always gaining new players changing from season to season, because you are only as good as the teams that you play against and it are those losses that come with the wins that make a team better.

There will always be a last place, but how far behind every other team does that team have to be, and for how long, before we start to talk about restructuring things?

[Shawn Carman]

If you can see a reoccurring situation such as a team constantly loosing year to year and not making any progress, someone has to step in and change it. It goes to show that this team is unable to learn from its losses and take anything away from it. So sending a team to the B div shouldn't be based (solely) on size but on its quality of play. Montana is the perfect example, they have proven that it is possible. They are a team that given 2-3 years grew into a team with so much potential, where much of the competition at the B level is not the most competitive anymore, so the only place to go is up from there and in this case that up would be the A division. That is if the A division we for the "Higher Level"/More Established level of play, and not the bigger football team school.

[Kyle Berggren]

I've got to get to indoor now, but I don't think we're looking at the big picture very closely.

2005 UW 15 Idaho 5
2006 UW 12 Idaho 8

What happens in 2007? 2008? 2009?

At what point to do we restructure them back to the A? It's the Fall & we're essentially saying Idaho is going to be terrible. Let's wait & see... You've been in the league for 2 years, you're improving, it's the fall before your third year & you're proposing we start making changes to accomidate your growth. The bottom line for me, you're an A division team by rule, take your lumps as everyone else has & continue to improve. We don't need to make changes based on the short term when many other teams have proven that you can make it through the tough times.

[Jakerandolph]

It would've been nice to even have the option to play in the B division. Because of how much it costs to play lacrosse, growth over here on the east side is a lot slower. Especially because outstanding high school players usually stay over on the western side where teams get more exposure. In our situation we wern't ready to committ financially to travel 8 hours down to oregon to get killed by OU and OSU. If there was an option to play in the B division... then we would definitely petitioned for that this season.