Pro hazing?

[UofMLaxGoalie11]

Im watching the Panthers-Dolphins game right now and they just showed a clip of the Panthers' training camp where its a ritual for the veterans to tape the rookies to the goalpost or chairs and dump water on them. Tony Saragusa (sp?) even said how to dump the water so the ice hurts more. How is this allowed and broadcast on tv as a joke, while some of the things colleges get in trouble for arent as bad as that? Why is it that when college students run through a gauntlet, get haircuts or do an underpants run, the team is fined, suspended or disbanded, but if a pro team does it, its a joke?

[whitcd]

Its all about policy. Colleges and Universities ban any type of behavior that could be hazing; where most Professional Sports teams do not. I know Brad Childress banned any type of hazing for the Vikings Training Camp this summer

[TexOle]

College students tend to take things too far. At the pro level it is a little more controlled.

[John Paul]

Alcohol. Period. If alcohol is involved, especially at our level where most involved are underage, it's a legal issue that schools have to be very wary of. Of course, alchohol can also quickly turn a controlled situation into an uncontrolled situation.

[KnoxVegas]

When professional hazing goes bad:

"1998 New Orleans Saints (Louisiana) Professional Professional football hazing; After the New Orleans Saints conducted a 1998 hazing similar to a gang "jump-in," rookie Cam Cleeland was sidelined with an eye injury he sustained when bashed with a bag of coins and rookie Jeff Danish was sent through a window and hospitalized for stitches. In 1999 Jeff Danish's hazing suit (U.S. District Court in Wisconsin) against former New Orleans pro football player Andre Royal was dismissed. Reason: Danish's attorneys did not continue their suit."

http://www.insidehazing.com/archives_view.php?id=8

[PigPen]

Alcohol. Period. If alcohol is involved, especially at our level where most involved are underage, it's a legal issue that schools have to be very wary of. Of course, alchohol can also quickly turn a controlled situation into an uncontrolled situation.

True, but not a catch all-at A&M (and other military instutions I'm sure) there has been a crack down on hazing in all forms. While I was there they instuted a rule about pushups-to keep it from becoming hazing, something where you could not make an underclassman do more thatn 40 pushups at a time. This was usually don at "instruction" times such as breakfast or dinner. Where I can guarantee no one was drinking and we were supervised by Tac officers.

Of course we got around that rule by having them get up after 40 and go right back down for another 40 and back up and then down again. So I am not sure why that rule was probably in place (probably an appeasement to some wussy parent who complained when their kids arms' hurting after doing a class set of pushups), because we found ways legally to circumvent it.

My point-alcohol is a big contributer, but I think it's parents/general public perception that is really a determining factor. Taping a rookie (who will make more $ than any of us at a 1st year job) to a goalpost is thought of funny to the American Pubic. College kids binge drinking and forcing a frosh to drink pis at a team party (can't remember where that was-Vermont hockey maybe) is viewed (as it should be) as disgusting and immoral.

[Pinball]

yes hazing is fun and can be a great team bonding experience, but too many kids have taken it too far. Its those small rare experiences where people get hurt or have lasting emotional problems.

Would i like to go back to our sweet "orientation" on the freshman? Without a doubt. Will the rooks still be carrying the nets around and picking up balls, sure why not- thats always fun.

[Anderson]

Lets also not forget that in the pros you get paid large amounts of money. While in college the only money that you could be receiving is scholarships and if you quit you may not be able to pay for school. People tend to put up with more when there is a six figure check behind it.

[PigPen]

Would i like to go back to our sweet "orientation" on the freshman? Without a doubt. Will the rooks still be carrying the nets around and picking up balls, sure why not- thats always fun.

The day that this becomes outlawed or deemed as hazing-I'm emigrating somewhere else.

[Kojima]

Here's another hazing story from the whl that's kinda crazy...

The Silvertips were beaten 5-0 by Tri-City during a pre-season tournament Sunday and [Head Coach Kevin] Constantine had his players remain in their gear for a post-game meal and the four-hour bus ride back to Everett -- the coach later agreed his actions were "a little inappropriate"

btw, good luck to this year's rookie class.

[dulax19]

one of my good friends played a couple years of Junior A hockey in the USHL for the Tri City Storm of Kearne, Nebraska. He told me that one game they blew a 3 or 4 goal lead and their coach did the same thing made them keep all their gear on for the ride home, then one genious asked the coach to turn down the heat, as you can guess it got a lot hotter on the bus. To end it all when they got back to Kearne the coach gave them a nice bag skate right when they arrived home, just thought id throw that story in there as well

[LaxRef]

one of my good friends played a couple years of Junior A hockey in the USHL for the Tri City Storm of Kearne, Nebraska. He told me that one game they blew a 3 or 4 goal lead and their coach did the same thing made them keep all their gear on for the ride home, then one genious asked the coach to turn down the heat, as you can guess it got a lot hotter on the bus. To end it all when they got back to Kearne the coach gave them a nice bag skate right when they arrived home, just thought id throw that story in there as well

I've never been one to believe that beating players up when they lose accomplishes much. Usually they know they screwed up, and they don't need the coach taking out his or her frustrations on them.

[Campbell]

Of course we got around that rule by having them get up after 40 and go right back down for another 40 and back up and then down again. So I am not sure why that rule was probably in place (probably an appeasement to some wussy parent who complained when their kids arms' hurting after doing a class set of pushups), because we found ways legally to circumvent it.

When I was in the Corps the rule was 40 pushups OR situps every ten minutes. This usually meant 40 pushups in ten minutes, which meant sitting at a leaning rest while you were instructed for 10 minutes. The Corps faced some major scrutiny in the 80s when a cadet died from over exertion, due to an unknown heart condition. After running him and another cadet several miles they had them doing push-ups in the shower with all the hot water running (steam). My freshman year at A&M the alleged beating of a female cadet hit the national media and put the fear of god into every cadet. Everyone became very familiar with the Texas hazing laws after that.

An organization in the Corps at A&M, returning from a national tournament, destroyed the second place trophy they had won on the bus trip home. Second place was unacceptable. No one was allowed to talk for the entire 10 hour trip back to College Station. I thought this was a little extreme, but this was a group that rarely lost first place.

I think hazing has its place. It can be constructive in that it builds unity amongst a class or group and can teach them to overcome adversities they may not have thought possible. It can teach you a lot about yourself as well. However, it can also be very destructive. Alcohol related hazing is by far the worst, since it is the most prevalent and not constructive at all (not to mention the serious risks to health and safety). Making rookies clean the fields, grab the cages, collect the balls, etc. are all rites of passage, and I think constructive towards unifying a freshman class on the team. In any case, upperclassmen, instructors, coaches, etc. should always examine why they are hazing and what it is there to accomplish. Hazing for traditions' sake or because you had to do it, are never reasons that are good enough. Once hazing crosses the line from constructive to destructive you push people away and destroy any beneift you would have gotten from a unified group.

[PigPen]

An organization in the Corps at A&M, returning from a national tournament, destroyed the second place trophy they had won on the bus trip home. Second place was unacceptable. No one was allowed to talk for the entire 10 hour trip back to College Station. I thought this was a little extreme, but this was a group that rarely lost first place.

I believe this same group was disbanded for hazing in the late to mid 1990's and was reinstated four years later when all of the cadets that were around at the time of the incident were gone as to discourage the reoccurance of such thing in the name of the "tradition".

Sadly it seems that most thing goes unnoticed until someone gets hurt of even killed. As was the case with Bonfire.[/quote]

[Campbell]

I would say the Bonfire tragedy was more related to an erosion of safety values over time. Although there was a great deal of hazing at Bonfire, either at cut or stack, the Bonfire collapsed due to poor construction. Certainly the "culture" of Bonfire played a part in that, but overall the lack of qualified supervision of the design caused those deaths.

You are right though, it usually isn't until something serious happens that people notice and take action; and then it is too late. That organization was disbanded in 1997 I believe, unfortunately a few of the cadets involved in the hazing incidents (perpetrators and victims) were in my outfit and were expelled from A&M as well as receiving criminal charges.