Minnesota Boy's Lacrosse now Varsity Sanctioned

[horn17]

I hear your points, but I absolutely hate the idea that if you are not the best team in your region/section that you could potentially win the State Championship. Why have regions/conferences/sections or even a regular season if the tournament lets everyone in?

Figurative example-

Regular Season Football:

Eden Prairie- 24
Burnsville- 20

Sectional Play-off:

Eden Prairie- 31
Burnsville- 28

State Championship Game:

Burnsville- 21
Eden Prairie- 20


How is this fair to Eden Prairie? Why should they have to prove themselves that many times against the same competition? There should be some reward for regular season victories and high school is the only place that still does that. Cheers to you, Minnesota!

Dan...

We have to keep it this way because some confrences are much better than others, it just the way it is..... a weaker confrence - whose winner wins their confrence, but gets waxed by everyone else in the state, gets to go? However a confrence that has 3 dominant teams, and two dont get to go because they lost to a much better team, doesnt make much sense espically if some of those other two teams have beaten most other confrence winners, and finish with a 8-2, or a 9-1 record.....it cant work that way...maybe for football...not lacrosse though....

Honestly, I think we will see a split soon, 2 divisions.....

[laxguru41]

I have to think that Minnesota would do what they normally do and offer a Sectional Play-off format to decide who will play in the State Tournament. Unfortunately, this could take a few years as teams move from club to varsity and the game grows, etc.

I dare say, the Minnesota play-off system for football and many other sports is quite good. No sectional championship, no state tournament. Just like it should be!

By this logic St. Johns shouldn't have been in the national tournament this year and we saw what they did!

[GrayBear]

Ever since the news broke of the varsity initiative being approved by the MSHSL, I've been hearing folks say (of our club and any others like it that are not connected to a school) that for us to survive in the new world we will have to, somehow, become "affiliated" with a high school, whether through a loose sponsorship or some other kind of artificial relationship. I guess the theory behind that would be to thereby secure a kind of "reflected" or derivative varsity status using that school for standing. Notwithstanding the chatter this is not at all how I was seeing the situation. My feeling is and has been that there will always be some club teams, and that the most stable and successful of these teams will eventually be accepted into the state varsity mainstream (meaning that they can schedule "school varsity" competition and be considered for playoff spots, same as a true varsity), much the same as blended squads in other sports are accepted. That has been my hope, anyway, although I'm not certain anyone has thought about this in depth throughout this process.

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts/opinions of others on this, and how you think it will play out.

[LaxRef]

Ever since the news broke of the varsity initiative being approved by the MSHSL, I've been hearing folks say (of our club and any others like it that are not connected to a school) that for us to survive in the new world we will have to, somehow, become "affiliated" with a high school, whether through a loose sponsorship or some other kind of artificial relationship. I guess the theory behind that would be to thereby secure a kind of "reflected" or derivative varsity status using that school for standing. Notwithstanding the chatter this is not at all how I was seeing the situation. My feeling is and has been that there will always be some club teams, and that the most stable and successful of these teams will eventually be accepted into the state varsity mainstream (meaning that they can schedule "school varsity" competition and be considered for playoff spots, same as a true varsity), much the same as blended squads in other sports are accepted. That has been my hope, anyway, although I'm not certain anyone has thought about this in depth throughout this process.

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts/opinions of others on this, and how you think it will play out.

I could be wrong, but I don't see any way that a club team not affiliated with a school will ever be able to compete in MSHSL lacrosse. Those blended teams in other sports are still official Varsity teams sponsored by those schools; they just need to combine a few schools to get enough athletes for a team.

I guarantee you that if a non-affiliated club could compete in MSHSL athletics, there would be some high-powered AAU-type clubs winning state championships every year.

OTOH, I see no reason why a club team not affiliated with a school or schools couldn't compete against other non-Varsity club teams unless the coaches running the league of club teams voted against it for some reason.

[GrayBear]

Very good points, and well-taken. I'm agreed that the logical place for a "composite" club is with a club league--just wondering if the club league will eventually dry up as teams convert to "MSHSL varsity" and what our future would be then. Nobody can really say. I've been told that the girls' sport has more or less settled in to a co-existence of MSHSL/club leagues but, again, who knows how long that balance will hold.

[LaxRef]

Very good points, and well-taken. I'm agreed that the logical place for a "composite" club is with a club league--just wondering if the club league will eventually dry up as teams convert to "MSHSL varsity" and what our future would be then. Nobody can really say. I've been told that the girls' sport has more or less settled in to a co-existence of MSHSL/club leagues but, again, who knows how long that balance will hold.

My belief is that few schools will go direct-to-Varsity, as it were. In other words, if School A wants to add lacrosse, they'll probably compete as a club for a few years to make sure there's enough interest and to gain experience before going Varsity. If I'm right, there will probably be a steady stream of schools going club to Varsity and a steady stream going from nothing to club, which would mean there would likely always be some club teams around. The geography might change quite a bit, though, since there are already a ton of teams in the metro area. Eventually, the clubs might be much more in outstate areas than they are now.

[Frank Clark]

Growing pains are going to be felt. Some teams will be left on the sidelines and they will not like it. But Stronger growth will most likely come from it, the foundation is key. One step back to take two forward.

I think it will be good to take some of the individuals abusing the club scenario out of the Lacrosse picture. Things will get done for the sport and not individual agendas, or at least I hope.


I also heard that the boys side will only be allowed to grow as fast as the girls side. So for example if there are 15 girls teams then there will only be 15 boys teams allowed. Is there any truth to this?

[LaxRef]

I also heard that the boys side will only be allowed to grow as fast as the girls side. So for example if there are 15 girls teams then there will only be 15 boys teams allowed. Is there any truth to this?

That sounds like a ridiculous extrapolation from someone's Title IX bias. Which, of course, doesn't mean it's not ture, but I think it is extremely likely. Do they cap the number of baseball teams based on the number of softball teams?

[mnref]

I also heard that the boys side will only be allowed to grow as fast as the girls side. So for example if there are 15 girls teams then there will only be 15 boys teams allowed. Is there any truth to this?

I doubt that is the case however it probably comes from the fact that the bylaw change submitted and approved by the MSHSL for boys lacrosse was almost word for word the language from girls lacrosse.

As I understand it, the MSHSL prefers to have related sports start nearly identical language and then review and approve any changes.

AFAIK, there is no limit to the number of teams of any type in the MSHSL. In fact, I think that would probably run counter to their stated purpose.

But anything is possible!

Matt

[GrayBear]

I think it will be good to take some of the individuals abusing the club scenario out of the Lacrosse picture. Things will get done for the sport and not individual agendas, or at least I hope.

Don't understand this at all. Please explain.

[horn17]

Currently there is no policing of certain individuals and the power they have. You'll notice this if you've ever been to one of the meetings. It takes about 5 hours to get anything done (and anything is usually about next to nothing). Then you have individuals who are speaking up, who arent even coaches, just running at the mouth about operating procedures and crap. They shouldn't even allow them into the meetings To many individuals would rather make a name for themselves instead of just setting up the foundation for the kids, because this is what it is really all about. Also, there will be stiffer penalties for those who abuse these, file unjust and unhonest claims about others, and simply attempt to use it as a pulpit. Did you know that the league can sanction everyone but the officals currently? Not to mention there is no offical penalties for any of their actions? Not fair if you ask me. Personally I cant wait to see it develop, and more importantly I cant wait to see another officals group as well step up to add some competition to them too....


(and no, this is not meant about Hank..who has done a great job the past couple of years while catching a lot of flack...)

[GrayBear]

I trust that this is in response to my earlier request. Thanks for the insight.

I have been to some meetings and agree about the chaotic atmosphere. I probably haven't been involved at that level (till now) recently or frequently enough to know exactly who is being referred to, but I can understand the frustration, if not the anger.

My hackles are raised with language like "taking certain individuals out of lacrosse" or words to that effect. At that point one could ask who it is that has an agenda and who it is that hasn't. I'll just chalk the remark up to righteous passion rather than real malevolent intent, though, and let it go at that. I know how it feels.

It seems to me that fixing any situation starts with fixing the machine that permits the abusive situation. In other words, if appropriate organizational structures are in place at all here, and I have to assume they are, then these should be invoked (if adequate) to enforce order or amended (if not currently adequate) and then utilized. On the other hand, if it's the strength of individuals charged with "policing" or enforcing procedures that is not up to the task, they should probably be replaced. Again, I'm not pointing fingers and don't really know who is involved, but that seems like it ought to be the first recourse--then the offensive personalities will essentially take themselves out of the picture by their behavior. As it should be.

Subjectively, I'm sick of people complaining (and this is not personal--I'm speaking generally) about situations that can be fixed but for the failure of the community at large to take control. Too much bad behavior is allowed to occur, routinely, due to inertia (to use a gentler term than the one I was first thinking of) and without the people with power and ability stepping up.

Just my 3 cents. Thanks for the response.

[horn17]

I echo your feelings....However, those using some of this power are using it in the wrong realms, and until everyone is held to the same level of accountablity, well then we all just look like a monkey shagging a football....

[GrayBear]

a monkey shagging a football....

Well that's a helluva visual to leave me with . . .

[LaxRef]

a monkey shagging a football....

Well that's a helluva visual to leave me with . . .

Try thinking of it this way:

shag4 (sh?g)
tr.v., shagged, shag·ging, shags.
To chase and bring back; fetch.
Baseball. To chase and catch (fly balls) in practice.
[Perhaps from obsolete shag, to shake.]

Maybe there was a gorilla taking punting practice?