Mock Post Season Div B Poll

[pepsi24]

In all my years, I have never participated in a "consolation" game. The tournaments were either single-elimination or double-elimination.

So, I didn't understand that the greater opportunity might be for the journeymen to get their time on the field.

Thanks for the insight.

The tournament is single elimination. Once you are eliminated, you play additional consolation games to fill in your week at the tournament site.

The effectiveness of those additional consolation games is somewhat debatable now. At one time, there was very little regular season, out of conference (OOC) travel - so the consolation bracket was useful.

Now, virtually the entire top 20 on the Div. A side are traveling to play each other. (Top ranked Div. B travel is starting to pick up their OOC travel too.).

Personally, I think we should minimize them to one final consolation bracket game after you lose in the single elimination bracket. If you lose in the semifinals, you are finished.

Another approach is to make the playoffs double elimination, and have teams in the consolation bracket play for something tangible (i.e. 3rd place). OOC games are especially tough on B program budgets, and it is expensive for these teams to make the trip to Nationals. Why not enhance every team's experience by guaranteeing at least 2 games for everyone, and take advantage of the opportunity to see how teams from different regions/conferences stack up vs each other.

i think that is a great idea...for the division b anyway, because of the lack of good ooc games and the etc's. its frustrating for a team like harding to play a great game and come within two points against a team that went to the championship in st. johns and then to beat calvin and unc and then have everyone pass it off as oh well we didnt have our best guys on the field. the same goes for augustana. so why not make it mean something...why not give teams that arent going to make it to the championship (i mean come on was anybody going to touch USD) an opportunity to prove that they need to be taken serious as a national contender.

thats not said in offense of what anyone has said. i just want to see some of these teams that had amazing seasons get some respect for that.

[Chris Larson]

2 points

1.) Convince people you're a contender in the regular season.

2.) Historically, in the A side of the event, the consolation side of the bracket and 3rd place games were played out. They tended to be sloppy and sometimes cheap affairs. Add to this the fact that people would then have a mechanism for extrapolting 1-16 and the situation bothered the players and coaches because teams would self-admittedly take different approached to consolation games. At their request we eliminated the bracketing of the consolation games and worked to develop regionally diverse, coach requested, or otherwise interesting matchups.

I think B division teams will find that the teams who regularly are a part of the tournament will get, for lack of a better term, bored with consolation games.

The truth of the matter is that consolation games are provided as a coutesy to the teams because we realize that you're travelling a great distance and we want to help you make the trip cost effective. The games are not provided as a means to justify post season polls, bragging rights, or anything else.

[Brandon Carlson]

Alright, as a player who used to run the zone in the SJU defense, that zone, as are all zones, is intended to throw a team off of it's rhythm. It is not something that a team can or should rely on for an entire game. The fact that SJU ran that zone as much as it sounds like they did during the championship game (I'm sorry I wasn't there) is a testament to how important Freeman was to their defense, and how the potential matchups suffered from his injury. That said, it doesn't really matter. I have a hard time believing that every team doesn't have at least one impact player hurt during a portion of the season. It is unfortunate that Freeman was hurt for the championship game, but that's life. I still rank Montana above SJU and SJU above Claremont for overall tournament performance.

[pepsi24]

1.) Convince people you're a contender in the regular season.

are you suggesting that harding and augustana didnt have seasons that justified them earning some respect from people?

2.) Historically, in the A side of the event, the consolation side of the bracket and 3rd place games were played out. They tended to be sloppy and sometimes cheap affairs. Add to this the fact that people would then have a mechanism for extrapolting 1-16 and the situation bothered the players and coaches because teams would self-admittedly take different approached to consolation games. At their request we eliminated the bracketing of the consolation games and worked to develop regionally diverse, coach requested, or otherwise interesting matchups.

when do we stop treating the a and b divisions as the same thing. we are talking about schools like michigan, florida state, and colorado state, which opperate on large budgets, play multiple out of conference games, and get support from their schools. on the other hand many b teams are scrapping money together to get through the season, cant get good teams to play them because they are a b team (regardless that they are a top 10 b) and because of where they are located (a few of the top tens arent close to anyone i.e. - montana, augustana, harding and others are close to only a handful of schools), and are getting little to no support from their school.

as has been said over and over again. div b..at least at this point in its existance, does not play the out of conference games that makes consolation games so menial to the a division.

if you dont approach a game to win it...thats really your choice...but its kinda like not voting for the president. you dont do it and you forfiet your right to complain when things dont work out.

The truth of the matter is that consolation games are provided as a coutesy to the teams because we realize that you're travelling a great distance and we want to help you make the trip cost effective. The games are not provided as a means to justify post season polls, bragging rights, or anything else.

so in order to make things more "cost effective" you are providing basically "scrimmage" games that mean nothing. whats the point in these lower seeded teams even spending the money to go, you are basically telling them that they have nothing to gain by coming. a team like southwestern might as well not even show up. they are going to be seeded last, play montana and their tournament is over, they will play two "scrimmages" that if they happen to win, the other team is going to show up and say "well we werent playing to win" and everything they worked for is now nullified. they spent thousands of dollars to come to nationals, just trying to show people they deserve to be there and what do they get from the experience? a lack of respect for what they accomplished this season, a lower ranking (at least in peoples minds), and if they are lucky a t-shirt.

sorry if i seem angry...i just dont get it and im frustrated.

[cjwilhelmi]

Neil, Neil, Neil (Pepsi24)... you just dont get it. To start with don't talk about the top teams unless you know for a fact what you are discussing. CSU and others receive no, that is zero, nada in terms of financial help from their school. The grand majority of the top national teams receive very little in terms of financial support. If I remember reading something right, BYU actually receives very little in terms of pure financial assistance from their school (grinderpete or others please correct me if I'm wrong).

I was there, I saw the difference between bracketed A games and consolation A games, bracket B and consolation B. There is a huge difference in the A division between the two styles that are played. I know that Sonoma ran their AA goalie as a middie against Michigan. The consolation games are there to get players PT, say goodbye to seniors and see what you have for next year. There is a smaller difference between bracketed B and consolation B, because lets be honest the ball is on the ground a lot no matter which one it is. Augustana and Eckerd had something like 120 ground balls in their first round Bracketed game. If I remember right I think that UNC played both their goalies agianst Harding.

As far as not having the money to travel... pony up and raise your dues. You can not sustain an OOC schedule and be a national contender on dues that range between $400 and $500 a year. If you want people to come to you then you must first go to them and work out a contract for home and away games. CSU, Michigan and other top A teams have dues in the several thousands.

A side note for you B teams out there that have trouble with player retainment - raise your dues. The more a player pays the more likely they will to come out to practice and work hard. The flip side is that you can't make it too much or else people wont come out. My honest opinion is that the latter is the individuals you dont want. You can always have them fundraise to make up the difference.

[pepsi24]

corbin...all i know is what i read...and i have seen in multiple places about certian division a teams running on budgets nearing the hundred thousand dollar mark...and that may come from players...but its still there.

secondly...come on you came up in the div. b system...even was the president of hardings team once upon a time. you think the solution to the problem is to raise dues?

[bste_lax]

1) Raise dues
2) Fundraise like no team has ever fundraised before
3) Hit up alumni (cough Corbin cough)

Like Corbin said, you would be surprised by the teams with the big budgets, how little of it comes from the actual schools.

[cjwilhelmi]

corbin...all i know is what i read...and i have seen in multiple places about certian division a teams running on budgets nearing the hundred thousand dollar mark...and that may come from players...but its still there.

secondly...come on you came up in the div. b system...even was the president of hardings team once upon a time. you think the solution to the problem is to raise dues?

Yes the high dollar mark is there but that comes from players. Simple math... Dues set at 2000, take Michigan's roster size of 36, that makes $72,000.

As for your second point, I do believe the answer is to raise dues. At Harding I wanted to make them around $600 or so. I was quickly voted down by the other officers to say the very least.

There is a very easy way to do this, and I am modeling this after a Div A team but for the life of me I can't think of which one it was. You set dues at a high number, lets say $1000 for easy numbers. You tell each player that they are to pay that amount by a certain date, December 31st. A player might just write a check for that amount and be done with it. For a player who cannot raise it then there should be a series of fundraisers for those players to raise the money. Whatever money is raised is divided by the number of players working and there ya go. Easy fundraisers are working at local restaurants, cleaning the football stadium after games, cleaning after bball games, doing concession stands, raffles and so forth. There are numerous things to do. Whatever the player hasn't earned by Dec 31st then they must pay that amount. Its harsh but these teams are small businesses.

The teams now a days are small businesses. You have some teams running budgets in the six figures. I know at Harding we ran with $20,000 or so in our budget. A small business must make choices and stick with them. Making player pay to play and pay on time is a choice that must be made. The Div B teams are no where near ready to make the jump to A (with the exception of USD) or play at that level consistently.

All the B teams want to improve, if they dont then why are they playing? But like many others here on the board, we dont want to hear about not having enough money. At HU we didnt have the money but we managed and scrapped by, but now those at the top of Div B have a choice to make. This choice is to either be complacent or to dedicate themselves to improve.

If the B teams dedicate themselves to improve then they must play better competition. I will be very surprised if you see many more Div A teams play Div B and if they do I would be shocked if they played their actual starters. B teams must play other B teams in order to truly improve. This takes time, dedication and traveling. Traveling costs money, so raise dues, fundraise and make things happen.

[/rant]

[cjwilhelmi]

3) Hit up alumni (cough Corbin cough)

Hey man, I told them I would send some $$$ if they sent me my old jerseys since they got new ones this year. I never got them

That is a great point though, Matt, about alumni. Take a look at BYU's alumni base. I heard that they get the grand majority of their budget through their alumni. Each team with some alumni, even if a small group, should consider an Alumni Relationship officer or an Alumni Association.

[bste_lax]

3) Hit up alumni (cough Corbin cough)

Hey man, I told them I would send some $$$ if they sent me my old jerseys since they got new ones this year. I never got them

That is a great point though, Matt, about alumni. Take a look at BYU's alumni base. I heard that they get the grand majority of their budget through their alumni. Each team with some alumni, even if a small group, should consider an Alumni Relationship officer or an Alumni Association.

I am sort of the pseudo-Alumni Relationship officer at Iowa and we made shirts for our alumni game this past season and charged all the past players more than current players to make some money to go along with anyone who left donations that weekend.

[pepsi24]

im with you on the money...but again...try to tell that to a team of 20 somethings and a coach like mark. but i mean if you can work the magic then lets do it...you know im down.

ok so i get it...money money money. i was wrong you were right corbin. there you happy. everyone right it down this is the one and only time ill ever say it...corbin you were right. p.s. - they never sent me jerseys either (i blame kyle)

...but my point was about the consolation games. gosh guys...can we ever stay on topic?

[cjwilhelmi]

im with you on the money...but again...try to tell that to a team of 20 somethings and a coach like mark. but i mean if you can work the magic then lets do it...you know im down.

ok so i get it...money money money. i was wrong you were right corbin. there you happy. everyone right it down this is the one and only time ill ever say it...corbin you were right. p.s. - they never sent me jerseys either (i blame kyle)

...but my point was about the consolation games. gosh guys...can we ever stay on topic?

I will only be happy if I can get Sonny to say "the young man from Atlanta is wise beyond his years" or at least the old school "reading is fundamental" and give the link to the forum rules.

[bste_lax]

im with you on the money...but again...try to tell that to a team of 20 somethings and a coach like mark. but i mean if you can work the magic then lets do it...you know im down.

ok so i get it...money money money. i was wrong you were right corbin. there you happy. everyone right it down this is the one and only time ill ever say it...corbin you were right. p.s. - they never sent me jerseys either (i blame kyle)

...but my point was about the consolation games. gosh guys...can we ever stay on topic?

I will only be happy if I can get Sonny to say "the young man from Atlanta is wise beyond his years" or at least the old school "reading is fundamental" and give the link to the forum rules.

Your rights for those comments were thrown away once you joined the "dark side" and changed your avatar.

[yourmom]

Your rights for those comments were thrown away once you joined the "dark side" and changed your avatar.

Hmmm i smell jealousy! mwaaaa hahahahahahahahaha (Dr. Evil style)

[Phoenix4]

I see everybody talking about the same teams, but if you go to the ranking for Div B on laxpower.com, you can see that Elon earned a #9 ranking at the end of the season. However, I dont have all the confidence in these rating systems, but Elon's only loss was to #3 ranked Eckerd by 2 goals in the SELC Championship. During the national tournament, Eckerd beat Augustana (polled at #10) by 8 and Utah Valley State (polled #2) by 12! Doesnt Elon deserve a spot in the top 10?