offsides and then release from the penalty box

[Bermudalax]

Ok, Didn't really know how to explain this in the subject box. Here is what happened in our game. We have one man serving a penalty and we are on defense. Our attackman mistakenly runs offsides making it 6v6 on our side of the field. A delayed penalty flag is thrown. The opposing team keeps it in the box keeping the ball alive. Our penalty is released...since we are already have a penalty for offsides (basically giving us a one man advantage than what we are supposed to have) we send him on defense as well. This gives us a 7v6 upperhand. The refs give two penalties for offsides, placing 2 of our men in the box. My question is, if we are already penalized for having a man offsides, the fact that the person serving the penalty does not change the fact that we are still only 1 man up. Was the call by the refs good, or not...

I am not sure if I explained that correctly, but it was my best shot

[mnref]

Ok, Didn't really know how to explain this in the subject box. Here is what happened in our game. We have one man serving a penalty and we are on defense. Our attackman mistakenly runs offsides making it 6v6 on our side of the field. A delayed penalty flag is thrown. The opposing team keeps it in the box keeping the ball alive. Our penalty is released...since we are already have a penalty for offsides (basically giving us a one man advantage than what we are supposed to have) we send him on defense as well. This gives us a 7v6 upperhand. The refs give two penalties for offsides, placing 2 of our men in the box. My question is, if we are already penalized for having a man offsides, the fact that the person serving the penalty does not change the fact that we are still only 1 man up. Was the call by the refs good, or not...

I am not sure if I explained that correctly, but it was my best shot

I think you explained it quite adequately.

This one could generate some discussion (well maybe not, everybody else is talking about the championship bracket). The complication comes from the definition of offside in Rule 4-10:

SECTION 10. A team is considered offside when:
a. It has fewer than three men in its attack half of the field (between the
center line and the end line).
b. It has fewer than four men in its defensive half of the field (between the
center line and end line).

When the player releases from the special substitution area into the defense half of the field, the team is no more offsides than when he was serving his penalty - they are still short just one attackman. That is the argument for NOT calling a second offsides penalty.

On the other hand, at the time first player crossed the line, it caused an offside situation. When the penalized player left the special substitution area, the only legal place he could go was to the offensive side of the field. By playing defense, the player is offside.

The only parallel situation I can think of is as follows. A1 goes offside and returns to his offensive half of the field (or not) and during the same play A2 goes offside. Even though team A was only ever offside by 1 player, they do have 2 offside penalties against them.

So, I'll go with the two offside penalties on this one although I haven't searched the rulebook completely for an applicable AR.

Matt

[laxfan25]

I would agree with the two-penalty call Matt. As you noted, if two different players go offside, they each get a technical. If one player goes offside, returns to the correct side and goes offsides again, it is only one penalty.
I'm always surprised that more players/coaches don't recognize this fact - once you've gone offsides and you see you've been called for it, you might as well go and help your teammates, since you're only going to get one penalty (unless of course you go down and slash someone )

[ritzy]

Here's the new situation:

While team A is man down, A1 goes offside. Before A2's penalty time releases, A1 returns to his offensive half. Then A2 returns to the field (legally) and A1 immediately returns to the defensive half creating the same 7 on 6 situation.

Only one foul in this case, right?

[laxfan25]

Here's the new situation:

While team A is man down, A1 goes offside. Before A2's penalty time releases, A1 returns to his offensive half. Then A2 returns to the field (legally) and A1 immediately returns to the defensive half creating the same 7 on 6 situation.

Only one foul in this case, right?

In that case you would be correct. Let's look at the original situation another way. A is man-down, and A1 goes offsides, leaving two in the attack half. If when A2's penalty expires,he goes on the attack half and then to the D half, leaving two again, that is another offsides on a different player, and A1 and A2 would both get 30 secs. Just because A2 decides to immediately go on the D half, putting them at 7, I think he gets a 30 in that case as well, along with A1 for the initial offsides.

[ritzy]

In that case you would be correct. Let's look at the original situation another way. A is man-down, and A1 goes offsides, leaving two in the attack half. If when A2's penalty expires,he goes on the attack half and then to the D half, leaving two again, that is another offsides on a different player, and A1 and A2 would both get 30 secs. Just because A2 decides to immediately go on the D half, putting them at 7, I think he gets a 30 in that case as well, along with A1 for the initial offsides.

I agree.

It might be a tough sell

[LaxRef]

It's a bit of a conundrum, but I think the key point is that before B1 is released, team B has one more player than they are allowed to have on that end of the field, and after B1 is released they still have one more player than they are allowed to have on that end of the field (namely B2).

It feels like B1 should be offsides because he's the 7th man, but if he is now offsides then B2 is no longer offsides.

Here's another way to look at it: when B2 goes offsides, even if he steps back onside, he can then go over midfield and play defense since the flag is already down. In effect, team B gets to play with an extra defender until the play is killed because there's a penalty upcoming for the offside infraction. When the penalty expires, if you force B1 to go into the offensive end, team B no longer gets to play defense with an extra man. Now, granted, we don't like the fouling team to gain an advantage by fouling, but in this case they've made a legitimate trade: playing with an extra defender in exchange for giving up a 30-second penalty if no goal is scored.

[Bermudalax]

It's a bit of a conundrum, but I think the key point is that before B1 is released, team B has one more player than they are allowed to have on that end of the field, and after B1 is released they still have one more player than they are allowed to have on that end of the field (namely B2).

It feels like B1 should be offsides because he's the 7th man, but if he is now offsides then B2 is no longer offsides.

Here's another way to look at it: when B2 goes offsides, even if he steps back onside, he can then go over midfield and play defense since the flag is already down. In effect, team B gets to play with an extra defender until the play is killed because there's a penalty upcoming for the offside infraction. When the penalty expires, if you force B1 to go into the offensive end, team B no longer gets to play defense with an extra man. Now, granted, we don't like the fouling team to gain an advantage by fouling, but in this case they've made a legitimate trade: playing with an extra defender in exchange for giving up a 30-second penalty if no goal is scored.

That is what we figured...when the penalty is up, having a 6v6 is legal, and if we are already in trouble for having a man up, why not actually have that man advantage

[laxfan25]

After consulting with my attending physician, er, official - I concur.
Take back my previous diagnosis.