who's up for the Div. B at large bids?

[Ballaholic]

just some montana notes for pollsters

since losing to UVSC(if i voted they would be my #2 at this point) 17-12 in provo at the end of march
-beat #11b montana state 13-8 at home
-beat #14b western washington 13-6 at home and 16-9 in portland this past weekend
-beat #15b PLU 21-11 in portland this past weekend

I think this next poll should see some shakeup. Where will Claremont and St. Johns fall? after both seemed to get dominated in important playoff games. Not sure what the pollsters will do but here is my thought on how the top 10 should break down

1-USD(all 1st place votes)
2-UVSC
3-St. Thomas
4-Claremont
5-St. Johns
6-Montana
7-Eckerd
8-Northern Colorado
9-Augustana
10-Harding

according to my poll St. Johns, Claremont and UNC would get the at-large bids

[cjwilhelmi]

1-USD(all 1st place votes)
2-UVSC
3-St. Thomas
4-Claremont
5-St. Johns
6-Montana
7-Eckerd
8-Northern Colorado
9-Augustana
10-Harding

Not to completely tear apart your picks, because I agree for the most part 1-7 but I have a question. How in the world does a team move up for losing? I understand if a team does not play and others above them losing and then moving up, but if a team loses they should not move up.

[Kyle Berggren]

That's not exactly my top 10, but if it were... I'd say that they moved up by default, as they lost a close game to a team ranked well above them, which solidifies their spot, while another team lost to a lower ranked team, moving further down the list, an upgrade by default almost. It's a tough spot to be in... If NC plays UVSC close, but loses, it shows where they're at skill wise, but should probably not move up because of it. But if a team has to move down, it's tough to penalize NC as well, so there's a jump.

[norway]

just to clarify some things. the GRLC had six B teams break the top 25 this year. i think that says alot about the conference. Harding went 4-2 on ranked opponents this year. wins against dordt, slu, southwestern, and creighton (all were in the top 25 at some point this season...2 still are). 2 close losses. One being to St. thomas by 4 and was the second game of the day. and a 1 goal loss to augustana whose only loss was to slu by 1. hardings loss did come in the semis, but augustana did win conference. yes, UNC played a tough schedule but they did not capitalize on any of those games. just look at the season record and you can tell which team had the better season.

[Kyle Berggren]

Neither team deserves to move up in the polls, you do not move up for losing. But does Team A get dropped farther? I dont know, they have had the consistency all year but coughed up the ball at the end. I just hope that this becomes what each team has done over the course of the season and not just Team A conference v Team B conference.

That's what I'm struggling with right now... Body of work, vs. what happened recently. The problem is that as great as Harding may be, and probably is, their current ranking is a result of their body of work. The new poll should reflect what has happened since I last adjusted my poll (which already has their body of work). They'd be in if there were 16 teams, hopefully the B will continue to grow rapidly, and we'll get those extra spots.

[Matt_Gardiner]

Right or wrong, I would have trouble putting any at-large team in the top 4. With only 12 teams in the B tourney, I would want to reward conference champions with a first round bye. Essentially, I dropped Claremont and St. John's from consideration in the top four automatically.

I am curious of others share my view.

[Andy Sharp]

1-USD(all 1st place votes)
2-UVSC
3-St. Thomas
4-Claremont
5-St. Johns
6-Montana
7-Eckerd
8-Northern Colorado
9-Augustana
10-Harding

You seem to have forgotten about a team called Calvin, who took your #2 UVSC to OT last year and gave your #3 St. Thomas a close 4-6 game earlier this year.

[lil lady lax fan]

Right or wrong, I would have trouble putting any at-large team in the top 4. With only 12 teams in the B tourney, I would want to reward conference champions with a first round bye. Essentially, I dropped Claremont and St. John's from consideration in the top four automatically.

I am curious of others share my view.

I have to disagree with you on dropping those two out of the top four. Yes, they lost in their championship finals, but if you match up opponents that some of the conference champions have played versus the teams they've played the drop is not merited. Probably the best example would be Montana and Claremont:

Montana:
vs PLU: won 18-14
vs W. Washington: won 13-6 and 16-9 in the championship game

Claremont:
vs PLU: won 17-5
vs W. Washington: 19-3

In regular season play, Montana lost to UVSC 17-12 while Claremont lost to San Diego 6-3. Much bigger difference in those losses point-wise in my book. UVSC/Montana was also a much higher scoring game. Yes, Claremont lost to San Diego again 14-6, but keep in mind that this was the championship game.

St. John has also played much tougher opponents than Montana and do not deserve to fall out of the top 5. Their loss to Claremont was in the last minutes of the game, and their only other big loss was to St. Thomas in the championship game.

If I were a pollster I would put them in this order:
San Diego
UVSC
Claremont
either St. John's orSt. Thomas
Montana

[beckner11]

I don't see how you would put a team with an overall record of 9-6 (as it was reported earlier in this thread) in the playoffs, having lost in their playoffs as well. A team has the ability to schedule some easier teams and pad their record with wins, yet they make their schedule extremely difficult, and I applaud them for that. However, it is my understanding that regardless of how tough your schedule is, you actually have to win those games to be talked about in a different light.

Then there is a team that only has 2 loses on their record, both coming to ranked teams, and they have proved themselves throughout the length of the season. They played some tough teams as well and found a way to get the W out of those.They also lost in the playoffs.

Now lets compare:
UNC- scheduled hard, played hard but couldn't close the deal in most of those, lost in the playoffs
Harding- scheduled fairly hard, played hard and was able to close the deal almost every time, also lost in playoffs.

It seems pretty clear to me who should be ahead of whom, by simply looking at WINS. I know little to nothing about either team so I feel that I carry a rather unbiased opinion on this matter, but it just seems really clear to me that a team with a 9-6 record shouldn't be considered over a team with only 2 loses (especially since both lost in their respective conference playoffs)

[Kyle Berggren]

What makes that a little less cut and dry to more context...

NC - Lost to UVSC (undefeated in the B, consistently ranked in the top 5) in the championship game by 2, and beat a team ranked below them in the playoffs...

Harding - Lost to a team ranked #24 in their playoffs, the team that beat them won the GRLC

With the St. John's St. Thomas scenario, and early season win and close contests got the teams into the top 5 or so. When ST beats SJ, in the UMLL Championship game, I don't care if ST played any OOC games, it's tough to rank SJ ahead of them. I could understand of ST wasn't ranked, and was jumping into the polls (how do they go from not in the top 25 to top 5), but that's not the case. If beating SJ doesn't move them up, what would have?

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

I don't see how you would put a team with an overall record of 9-6 (as it was reported earlier in this thread) in the playoffs, having lost in their playoffs as well. A team has the ability to schedule some easier teams and pad their record with wins, yet they make their schedule extremely difficult, and I applaud them for that. However, it is my understanding that regardless of how tough your schedule is, you actually have to win those games to be talked about in a different light.

Then there is a team that only has 2 loses on their record, both coming to ranked teams, and they have proved themselves throughout the length of the season. They played some tough teams as well and found a way to get the W out of those.They also lost in the playoffs.

Now lets compare:
UNC- scheduled hard, played hard but couldn't close the deal in most of those, lost in the playoffs
Harding- scheduled fairly hard, played hard and was able to close the deal almost every time, also lost in playoffs.

It seems pretty clear to me who should be ahead of whom, by simply looking at WINS. I know little to nothing about either team so I feel that I carry a rather unbiased opinion on this matter, but it just seems really clear to me that a team with a 9-6 record shouldn't be considered over a team with only 2 loses (especially since both lost in their respective conference playoffs)

Andrew. . .

respectfully I completely disagree. Record means very little when teams play no common opponents. You look at their body of work, and then try to determine who had the better season. . .and for me I put a little more weight on the end of the season than the beginning of it. . .for obvious reasons.

I think Harding and UNC are very close. . .and I can see arguments on either side. . .but to punish UNC for having a brutal schedule makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How does a Harding win over Memphis compare to a UNC loss to Colorado State??? Answer: it doesn't.

You don't compare records when there are no common opponents.

[Ballaholic]

1-USD(all 1st place votes)
2-UVSC
3-St. Thomas
4-Claremont
5-St. Johns
6-Montana
7-Eckerd
8-Northern Colorado
9-Augustana
10-Harding

Not to completely tear apart your picks, because I agree for the most part 1-7 but I have a question. How in the world does a team move up for losing? I understand if a team does not play and others above them losing and then moving up, but if a team loses they should not move up.

I have them moving up because they had a quality win since the last poll(vs Montana State) and a good game against what i think is the #2 team in B. Unlike other teams in similar on-the-bubble situations dayton and harding who both lost early in their conference tourneys to lower ranked opponents. Therefore I think UNC will get the nod to Dallas over harding or dayton.

[Ballaholic]

Right or wrong, I would have trouble putting any at-large team in the top 4. With only 12 teams in the B tourney, I would want to reward conference champions with a first round bye. Essentially, I dropped Claremont and St. John's from consideration in the top four automatically.

I am curious of others share my view.

I think that would be the best way to do it. Thats the same thing the selection committee for March Madness does it, which should be a good model to follow.

[Ballaholic]

Right or wrong, I would have trouble putting any at-large team in the top 4. With only 12 teams in the B tourney, I would want to reward conference champions with a first round bye. Essentially, I dropped Claremont and St. John's from consideration in the top four automatically.

I am curious of others share my view.

I have to disagree with you on dropping those two out of the top four. Yes, they lost in their championship finals, but if you match up opponents that some of the conference champions have played versus the teams they've played the drop is not merited. Probably the best example would be Montana and Claremont:

Montana:
vs PLU: won 18-14
vs W. Washington: won 13-6 and 16-9 in the championship game

Claremont:
vs PLU: won 17-5
vs W. Washington: 19-3

In regular season play, Montana lost to UVSC 17-12 while Claremont lost to San Diego 6-3. Much bigger difference in those losses point-wise in my book. UVSC/Montana was also a much higher scoring game. Yes, Claremont lost to San Diego again 14-6, but keep in mind that this was the championship game.

St. John has also played much tougher opponents than Montana and do not deserve to fall out of the top 5. Their loss to Claremont was in the last minutes of the game, and their only other big loss was to St. Thomas in the championship game.

If I were a pollster I would put them in this order:
San Diego
UVSC
Claremont
either St. John's orSt. Thomas
Montana

The problem with comparing the WWU and PLU games(between claremont and montana) is that both those teams traveled all they way down the pacific coast to play claremont and then montana played both games on the road after 10 hour bus rides. just something to remember when comparing games between like opponents is location and travel distance for other team. PLU was also without their best middie in cali and had him this weekend for the 21-11 loss to montana.

[Ballaholic]

sorry to flood the forum, i'm just really curious to see what is gonna happen today. i just have one more thing to say. I think the St. john's win over USD 2+ months ago should not matter as much anymore. Not to take anything away from the amazing feat that it must have took to beat those kids but it was the begining of the season when teams are feeling it out. USD is now on top their of their game while the johnnies seem to be slipping off a bit.