Report scores, Discuss games, WCLL week 11

[lil lady lax fan]

The rule for placement is a Div 1-A football team. So any school that plays Div 1-AA, Div 2 or Div 3 is placed in the B division. Any team that is automatically placed in the B division can petition to play A at the discretion of the conference they play in. A couple of examples that come to mind are UCSB and Cal Poly in the WCLL Rhode Island in the PCLL and SFU in the PNCLL.

Lack of money is a lame excuse not to jump on the USD poster. A lot of teams get next to nothing from their schools, some receive nothing yet they still make the necessary trips OOC some more than once and many have gone on to compete for the National Championship. Creative thinking and long term planning can go a long way to solve money issues. Setting up alumni and booster clubs, endowment funds, scholarships and bursaries are some longer term solutions that many teams have initiated.

Ah, key points here are time and organization. It often takes a few years to get things set up and ready to go. Plus, you have to have players and alumni involved who are willing to dedicate their time and effort toward that goal, and someone to keep things organized. Not a task that can be done very easily in one year's time. Also, I don't think taking the increased cost into consideration is a lame excuse. Moving up to A (especially in the WCLL) means more long distance games, especially if you plan on competing at the National level. Like it or not, that often translates to a higher cost. Teams such as Cal Poly and UCSB have been fortunate. They have been able to absorb the increased costs in steps, their costs growing as the MDIA program grew. It's a much bigger step for folks making the move nowadays.

Any team thinking of moving up to Division A wants to make sure that they are doing the right thing for their future teammates--a big consideration when you have a much more limited student body to pull from as is the case for both San Diego and Claremont. No one wants to move up only to regret it a few years down the road. I'm sure when and if they feel ready they'll make the move, but don't fault them for taking a little while to weigh all the options and decide what is best for the team.

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

Here's some more food for thought: the WCLL currently has four teams ranked in the Division "A" MDIA Top 10 (Sonoma, UCSB, UCSD, Cal Poly). Since none of these schools has a Division 1A football team, all four schools are actually MDIA Division B teams according to MDIA rules. We all choose to "play up" in the "A" Division. I don't have the exact rule in front of me, but I don't think there is anything preventing any of our four teams from jumping back and forth from A to B from season to season. It's not likely to happen, but it's interesting to ponder the implications of a team deciding which Division to play in on an annual basis.

I don't know the by-laws in the WCLL, but in our league if a team wants to play "down"- like Gonzaga or SFU, they would have to petition the league to move down. Similarly, a team like Montana that is a pretty large school, but also doesn't have a D-1A Football program, may decide at some point to move up, and that movement would also need to be approved by the league.

When the USL-MDIA decided to split into A and B divisons, we told teams to make a careful decision as to which division they felt they best "fit" at that time, and we also made it very clear that we do NOT want teams moving back and forth, depending on the kind of season they expected to have.

In all honesty, in our league I think it will be a lot easier to get approval to move up to the A division (teams like Montana, Western WA) than it will be to move down (SFU, GU).

[Bluevelvet]

No one is going to move up or down on an annual basis in the WCLL.

Teams such as Claremont and USD, that are having alot of success at the B level, were not particularly successful before the A-B split. They played UCSB, Arizona, Cal, UCSD, CalPoly, etc. annually and they were never better than middle of the road.

Maybe because they have gained so much confidence with their B division success, they might be even higher this year. But remember, last year, Claremont was 2-4 with their mediocre WCLL A division schedule and finished #6 in the country in the B division.

Comparing Claremont and USD to CalPoly, UCSB, and UCSD is like comparing apples and oranges. UCSB, for example, has close to 20,00 students and is an NCAA division one school (with no football). Claremont and USD are around 5,000 students or less.

USD and Claremont can continue to play in the B division and play some WCLL A division teams each year. In theory, eventually, the top B division teams would be able to consistantly give the top A teams a competitve game.

[irishlax]

Anyone have the score for the Chapman @ Florida game?

[Danny Hogan]

11-10 chapman in double OT

chapman scored to tie it with :10 left in regulation after leading for most of the game.

[mcneito]

The B division was not designed as a developmental league. It is for smaller schools to play at a high level.

Well said.

Kudos to SD and Claremont for having great coaching and player dedication to rally some great A div teams. Being in the WCLL and RMLC means you are among the best club players in the nation. To move up and compete on that level on a consistent basis would be very tough.

The B division is serving its purpose and developing into a very good league with some depth and it will continue to improve as time passes. As we see on the A division, we are seeing the same teams near the top every year due to the coaching and dedication of certain schools. I think theA/B div split is working out very well.

[lil lady lax fan]

No one is going to move up or down on an annual basis in the WCLL.

Teams such as Claremont and USD, that are having alot of success at the B level, were not particularly successful before the A-B split. They played UCSB, Arizona, Cal, UCSD, CalPoly, etc. annually and they were never better than middle of the road.

Maybe because they have gained so much confidence with their B division success, they might be even higher this year. But remember, last year, Claremont was 2-4 with their mediocre WCLL A division schedule and finished #6 in the country in the B division.

Comparing Claremont and USD to CalPoly, UCSB, and UCSD is like comparing apples and oranges. UCSB, for example, has close to 20,00 students and is an NCAA division one school (with no football). Claremont and USD are around 5,000 students or less.

USD and Claremont can continue to play in the B division and play some WCLL A division teams each year. In theory, eventually, the top B division teams would be able to consistantly give the top A teams a competitve game.

Blue Velvet, I suggest you reconsider your wording a little. I don't think the teams that played Claremont last year would appreciate being called mediocre. A better description might by the median teams of the division since many of them fell in the middle of the total league in the A division. Claremont also ended up #6 more due to their NOT being at Nationals last year. IMO they got short-changed for that.

Also the teams that are playing now are not the same teams that played y'all before the A-B split. They are more organized, better coached and more disciplined players. Coaches Ginnegar and MacFarlane have done a lot to improve these two teams in the two and three years respectively that they've been coaching their respective teams. Add to that the assistant coaches they've been able to recruit and you can see why they are on top and beating the A division teams they are playing. I also suggest you examine their rosters and note their diversity. Claremont's been doing some active recruiting as evidenced by the higher number of East Coast and Midwest players, many of them freshmen and sophomores. Same holds true for San Diego--lots of good recruits from outside the state as well as from some of the local powerhouses.

As for them gaining confidence because of their B division schedule, yes Claremont's done very well this season against their B opponents, their only loss suffered at the hands of the #1 Toreros--a game that was much closer point-wise than their matchups last year. You may not have noticed but this year's schedule doesn't have half the number of games against A division opponents than they've had in years previous. Unfortunately with the increased number of OOC games that many of the A teams were playing this year they were unable to fit the Cougs into their schedule. A bit frustrating, I'm sure, for a team that loves that level of competition.

Claremont was lucky enough to line up a game with Div. II NDNU. Although they lost that matchup they played a very competitive game under conditions similar to what Oregon played in (wet, muddy, balls getting lost in the puddles--you know, the whole nine yards) and their score was in the ballpark of the Oregon game (5-13 vs Oregon's 8-15). I'm not saying they could've played Oregon and beaten them, but they were playing well enough to get close to their score.

I find it very amusing to note that both San Diego and Claremont lined up their toughest non-B division games (UCSD and NDNU) in order to get them both ready for round two this April in Santa Barbara. In all probability both of these teams will be in Dallas this year.

[Bluevelvet]

Lil lady-
This all started because someone thought that USD and Claremont should "move up" to the A division because they were doing so well.
I was trying to point out that the B division is not a developmental league. In time the top B division teams should be as good as many of the top A teams. I just don't think that day has arrived yet. I think that USD and Claremont can pulloff an occasional upset but if they had to play top teams such as UCSB, Arizona, CalPoly, Chapman, Sonoma St, etc all the time, they would not be as successful. Also the small student population makes those teams more susceptable to periodic ups and downs as groups of players graduate.
I am defending B division lacrosse. I see a great future for those teams as B teams, not as A teams.

[Maple Leaf]

Lil lady-
This all started because someone thought that USD and Claremont should "move up" to the A division because they were doing so well.
I was trying to point out that the B division is not a developmental league. In time the top B division teams should be as good as many of the top A teams. I just don't think that day has arrived yet. I think that USD and Claremont can pulloff an occasional upset but if they had to play top teams such as UCSB, Arizona, CalPoly, Chapman, Sonoma St, etc all the time, they would not be as successful. Also the small student population makes those teams more susceptable to periodic ups and downs as groups of players graduate.
I am defending B division lacrosse. I see a great future for those teams as B teams, not as A teams.

bluevelvet is absolutely correct, it comes down to consistency. a couple of factors play into this... as he mentions the small number of the student body is very limiting, but also the ability to recruit. small schools such as chapman and ssu have the ability to recruit players to their institutions (not sure how much of this actually goes on... but nonetheless, it is a possibility) i can't speak to the admission standards at san diego, but claremont is one of the hardest private colleges to get into, not to mention the high cost of admission.

lil lady stated that we "recruited" players from the east coast and the midwest... not entirely true, we have players on our roster form all over, but we certainly did not recruit them. we are just lucky to have some players from around the country who have played before, no players are coming to claremont for the lacrosse program, it is education first then we try to get them to come out and play.

i think you can see similar things happening in the A division, schools like cal, ucla, stanford etc. which also have very high admissions standards are also unable to recruit, and therefore cannot truly compete in the A division. they may get lucky, and have a few quality players show up but certainly cannot go out and actively recruit.

basically what i am trying to say is bluevelvet is correct... claremont and san diego may be able to go up and compete in the A division currently, but there is nothing to guarantee this in the future. in the mean time, we can just try to schedule A teams and continue to improve as a program. I would say it is no fluke that the WCLL is the best conference in both divisions, B teams can greatly improve their level of play by scheduling quality A teams

[lil lady lax fan]

You've got some very good points there. True, in the B division they are top of their league, and with the caliber of students they are pulling in have the potential to stay that way. I suppose the biggest problem they face right now is making their schedule as challenging as they would like it to be. And they may feel moving up is their only option.

I did notice that many of the mid-range teams in the WCLL B division (ie UCI, Oxy, Pepperdine and Biola) have stepped up their level of competition by lining up more games with div. A teams on top of their OOC games. This can only improve things for all teams involved, especially when it comes to raising the bar in the level of play in the B division.