Factory Brine E3 Head Ruled Illegal?

[Jolly Roger]

This does present an interesting question. Can a coach call for a stick check after a goal in OT and have the goal removed? Since it is sudden victory I would assume no. Any thoughts LaxRef.

No. Asked and answered in this forum earlier

I have worked with guys who are more experienced and they have asked me for help on different calls. Asking for help is always a good thing.

Maybe they were testing you...

[Sonny]

I can assure you that any time I find a stick on my tape that is close to being illegal then I am going to ask my partner to look at the stick possibly with another tape measure. This deals with the different types of errors which is confusing. If the stick is illegal on both tapes or too close to call on one and illegal on the other then you are going to sit. If the stick is too to call close on one and legal with another tape you might get a pass with a warning that the stick is close.

There should only be one tape measure used once the game begins... the referees. Using multiple tape measures only invites criticism from the coaches, players, and possibly fans.

I believe the mechanics support this as well. The referee should do the measuring at the midline stripe inbetween quarters while the Umpire (and FJ) face the bench area and hold the crosses.

P.S. "Too close to call" isn't really a call. Sounds like you want an alibi there. Either the stick is illegal or it's legal.

[Band]

All E3 heads including the one in question were measured by individuals who may or may not be "referees" before a meeting between two lacrosse teams that might be classified as a "game," though one not so specific as to be made reference to in any way on this forum, that may or may not have occurred on April 9th. All heads were found to be legal with room to spare.

Interesting.

[skypny]

Either the stick is illegal or it's legal.

Then why do two sets of officials rule a stick 2 different ways? This indicates that there must be varying definitions being used by officiating staff, if different rulings being issued on the same stick in question.

[Kyle Berggren]

You know, once a stick has been played with, its not brand new... A poke check effects the stick, as do ground balls, & other checks... These sticks that were legal on the 9th, may or may not have been after a night in a hot/cold car... Bottom line, if your stick is on the edge of legal (and many are), I find it tough to hear a complaint when it isn't quite legal.... Just as you can't expect to find 2 heads from a mold to be 100% the same, you'll find it hard to find 2 tape measures that are the same (think cubits if you will). Have it checked pre-game, then know it can get tweaked.... I have a stick I've never baked, boiled, or tossed in the microwave, but its no wear near legal for NCAA (or club), because of rough play. The memory on the plastic is not that of other materials.

[Band]

You know, once a stick has been played with, its not brand new... A poke check effects the stick, as do ground balls, & other checks... These sticks that were legal on the 9th, may or may not have been after a night in a hot/cold car... Bottom line, if your stick is on the edge of legal (and many are), I find it tough to hear a complaint when it isn't quite legal.... Just as you can't expect to find 2 heads from a mold to be 100% the same, you'll find it hard to find 2 tape measures that are the same (think cubits if you will). Have it checked pre-game, then know it can get tweaked.... I have a stick I've never baked, boiled, or tossed in the microwave, but its no wear near legal for NCAA (or club), because of rough play. The memory on the plastic is not that of other materials.

Sorry, doesn't hold water this time. We put the stick back in the same car it rode to town on and drove back that night and measured it within minutes of arriving home. Legal.

[Sonny]

Either the stick is illegal or it's legal.

Then why do two sets of officials rule a stick 2 different ways? This indicates that there must be varying definitions being used by officiating staff, if different rulings being issued on the same stick in question.

There maybe differing opinions among the two or three members of the officiating crew - But ultimately, the head referee has the final decision. His call is final if there is a disagreement and the stick is ruled legal or illegal on gameday at the site per his decision. Not after the stick has been driven around town.

[LaxRef]

Either the stick is illegal or it's legal.

Then why do two sets of officials rule a stick 2 different ways? This indicates that there must be varying definitions being used by officiating staff, if different rulings being issued on the same stick in question.

Some officials will call it if it's a hair under the limit, some won't call until it's a 1/16th or an 1/8 under. Then you can have variations in the stick from game to game. Then sometimes the officials won't call the stick illegal if it's, say, from the trailing team and the trailing team is down by, say, 15.

[Band]

Just to run a bit of an experiment. We took a stick head and froze it in the freezer for 5 hours. Size didn't change.

Also these heads aren't 1/16 of an inch under, in fact they are a good 1/8" over the limit.

[laxfan25]

Theere are a couple other things that can affect how a stick measurement turns out.
One is the stick design. As the manufacturers push the limits, they could be engaging in some tricks to meet the size reequirements. One stick in particular that causes different interpretations is the Evo Pro. At the widest point of the head, there are a couple 1/2 inch or so notches on the sidewall. The notches descend on an angle until they meet the vertical part of the sidewall. I have measured several of these sticks, where if you went by where the vertical sidewall is, would be quite illegal. If measured from the inside of the notches, they just make it. So the question is, where is the measurement for the inside of the head supposed to be taken. I've been on crews where it was determined by the vertical sidewall (illegal) or at the notch (probably being generous, but calling it legal since the penalty is quite severe).
Another is the method used with the tape measure. Some officials just extend the tape measure end into one side, and look at the other for the measurement. Others will lay the tape measure across the head, measuring from an inside inch mark to 6 1/2 from there. My feeling with the first method is that with the curve on some heads, and with the width of the tape measure, the end of the tape may not be getting right to the inside edge. I would hope if someone measures that way and finds an illegal stick, that they will confirm by going fully across the top.
So these are a couple reasons why you may find differences in interpretation from game to game.
Full Offset for maximum control and feel.
Narrow face increases ball retention and accuracy.

[danza]

when u string a nylon shooter across a head it can pinch the head just by being tied there if there is any tension. some players i have seen leaning on their heads to counteract this. ive also seen an entire team with a measuring tape two hours before the game making their heads legal or not playing with them. it is the cost of new and cutting edge technology that gives us this problem. take the time to make ur head legal before the game, or dont play with it.

[LaxRef]

it is the cost of new and cutting edge technology that gives us this problem.

I guess I don't see why the new and cutting edge technology can't allow 1/4-inch margin of error so the sticks would pass the stick check with no problem.