Factory Brine E3 Head Ruled Illegal?

[Sonny]

So is the factory (unaltered) Brine E3 stick illegal for play or is it that some guy on "Team A" is using an E3 that has been bent and hit so much that it has worked it's way illegal?

Some sticks come from the factory so close to the line that become illegal through play (even though they haven't been altered).

Our tape measueres can't define intent, just if a stick is legal or illegal.

[Band]

So is the factory (unaltered) Brine E3 stick illegal for play or is it that some guy on "Team A" is using an E3 that has been bent and hit so much that it has worked it's way illegal?

The stick is brand new and has not been bent or torqued out of shape. The Team A players went home and measured the stick, and all the other E3 heads, and by the rule book specs they are legal for NCAA play.

[Sonny]

So is the factory (unaltered) Brine E3 stick illegal for play or is it that some guy on "Team A" is using an E3 that has been bent and hit so much that it has worked it's way illegal?

The stick is brand new and has not been bent or torqued out of shape. The Team A players went home and measured the stick, and all the other E3 heads, and by the rule book specs they are legal for NCAA play.

Evidently, the officials judgement (during the game) differs from your judgement (after the game). Again, officials' tape measures can't define intent. Just if a stick is legal or illegal.

[Brendan Barry]

I have one that has been lightly used... anyone wanna buy it for cheap?

[mbuff]

Here is a little case in point that played out last weekend.

In the previous 3 games, I've had 3 different Protons thrown out as illegal for being under the 6.5" measurement. So since I was in the DFW area where you can go to a retail store, I went and took 3 Protons off the shelf and put my tape on them. Each stick was anywhere from 1/16th to an 1/8th under the 6.5".

Now I could have paid $89 for one and left it tagged up to prove my point to a ref but I'm sure the conversation would end with, "You should not have bought an illegal head in the first place." In addition, all of the sticks I checked at the store were factory strung with mesh and it didn't appear that the sidewall was being "pulled in" by the string job.

So during our game Saturday, I told everyone what I found out and that if they saw a Proton on the field, let me know and I may call for a stick check or just ask the opposing player after the game. I ended up calling for a check and the Proton was ruled legal. After the game, the player with the Proton told me the head was about 1 year old. So I'm sort of baffled on the whole thing now. Are the manufacturers cheating them in this year as opposed to last?

I would like to tell people to measure the head at the store but we are 200 miles from any store so we have to rely on mail order and when you are shelling out $$$ for heads that say "Meet NCAA specs" and really don't, it become a big problem.

So my advice is to measure the head (inside to inside for width)before you take the tags off and send it back if it's not legal because if it's too narrow and you get called for the 3 minute, there's nothing you can to to fix the stick on the field.

[Sonny]

Now I could have paid $89 for one and left it tagged up to prove my point to a ref but I'm sure the conversation would end with, "You should not have bought an illegal head in the first place."

Correct.

Referees don't write the rules or make the equipment, we just enforce them as written in the rulebook.

[Kyle Berggren]

Yes it would be great if sticks were legal from the factory, but many aren't... Lots of cars aren't properly outfitted for the road from the factory (such as no front plate in WA).... It's still our responsibility to abide by the laws, not necessarily the manufacterer. Should they put conforms to NCAA specs on it, no, but with truth in advertising laws the way they are, they get away with it.

If your arguement is shame on them, I can't completely agree. If I get called for an illegal stick, the player let our team down, not STX, Brine, or Warrior.

If your arguement is lax isn't big enough for us to measure sticks for legality, we have to trust the manufacter, I suggest you convince Sonny to add a forum, and start reviewing equipment... Its not a bad idea, but it is a full time job, and I'll guess the pay is crap. On the upside, you'd probably get better at stringing & fake passes.

[yourmom]

So during our game Saturday, I told everyone what I found out and that if they saw a Proton on the field, let me know and I may call for a stick check or just ask the opposing player after the game. I ended up calling for a check and the Proton was ruled legal. After the game, the player with the Proton told me the head was about 1 year old. So I'm sort of baffled on the whole thing now. Are the manufacturers cheating them in this year as opposed to last?

Couple of things,

Calling a stick check still seems a little classless in most situations to me. Im not bashing mbuff here, but I have seen this call used as a cheap way to achieve alot of results during a game. Usually it seems to be near the end of a game to kill momentum and things of the sort. Now granted there are times when it seems blatently obvious that the ball just doesn't seem to come out of a players stick, but some coaches seem to use thier stick check calls with an alterior motive.

Second as far as the manufacturers cheating consumers, I have used cybers for the past 4 years and loved them, but this year I have shattered 2 brand new cybers. Could it of been a string of bad luck? Sure. But I don't think brine is using the same plastic as in the past. Plus it is interesting how the makers keep the same model names and change the dimensions from year to year. At least put a number for each generation so I can get the one I want. Just my opinions, flame away.

[mbuff]

Classless? It's in the rule book and legal to call and it's the first time I've actually called one in two seasons. In addition, I did it following a goal prior to the FO. Thus I found out what I was looking for without having to confront an opposition player after the game who could have refused the measurement. Calling it the way I did had no effect on the momentum of the game and if I really wanted to "be classless" I would have chewed the stripes to give the player being checked a USC for doing a handstand when they asked to see his cleats.

Since this little Proton problem has cost us 9 min in NR penalties thus far, I've taken to measuring most of the heads prior to the game. PIA, yes but we have not had the problem since. Granted a 1/16 of an inch is really not going to change anything at the top of the stick but "the rules are what they are" and you're not going to change that on the field measurement.

Additionally, I asked at the half if they measure lower than the high school level and the refs said they usually do it down to 5th grade. I could just picture the livid LAX MOM who just shelled out $100 for her 12 year old's EVO that just got tossed. Manufacturers are not helping the game from this aspect.

<b>CAVEAT EMPATOR</B>

[Sonny]

Please stay on topic fellas and avoid any actual game references. Frankly, I'm tired of reminding you all of the rules for this forum.

Lacrosse Rules and Officiating Forum Guidelines

In order to maintain the decorum of this forum, please observe the stated USLIA.com message board rules and these guidelines when posting in the Lacrosse Rules and Officiating Forum:

1. No references to actual teams, players or officials – If you have a game situation you would like to discuss, please phrase it as Team A and Team B, or A1 checked B2, etc. No specific references to MDIA teams/players/coaches will be allowed!

[yourmom]

I started off saying I wasn't bashing you for the mere fact that I was not at the game and don't know the situation, so please don't take offence. I went on to bring up the topic of stick checks at key points in the game. simmer down now.

and yeah I can see one of my highschoolers mothers going nuts after spending that kind of money.

[LaxRef]

f your arguement is shame on them, I can't completely agree. If I get called for an illegal stick, the player let our team down, not STX, Brine, or Warrior.

Actually, it's the coach's responsibilty to make sure the team's equipment is legal. At least, he's the one who certifies it's legal before the game.

If your arguement is lax isn't big enough for us to measure sticks for legality, we have to trust the manufacter, I suggest you convince Sonny to add a forum, and start reviewing equipment... Its not a bad idea, but it is a full time job, and I'll guess the pay is crap. On the upside, you'd probably get better at stringing & fake passes.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but the key point is that there's never a way to tell if the crosse has been modified, so you can't just say "All sticks of this brand and model are legal."

[Lax_Stats]

I suggest the first thing you do when you buy a new stick from the manufacturer by mail order that you measure it before removing any tags and using it in a game. If it isn't legal, call the manufacturer immediately and complain and have them pay to have the stick sent back. And of course you should pre-measure any sticks in a store before you buy them. The only way to get the manufacturers to take the issue of "illegal sticks from the manufacturer" seriously, is to keep complaining and sending back illegal sticks! We all need to make this issue more trouble than it is worth for the manufacturers if we want them to take notice and start making sure sticks the sell are legal when sold!!!

[TexOle]

I have played with mbuff a few times, and I know that he is clearly one of classiest guys I know in the sport. I am with mbuff on checking sticks in the stores. I have taken a tape measure to stores to check, and if I forget mine you better believe I am asking a for a tape. I want to know for a fact that the stick I am about to buy is legal. If you are about to go a down a goal with minimal time in the game then a good coach will use that check. We saw it in a semi game not long ago. It is a good coaching move. Everyone hopes every player is playing with a legal stick but you never know.

This does present an interesting question. Can a coach call for a stick check after a goal in OT and have the goal removed? Since it is sudden victory I would assume no. Any thoughts LaxRef.

Also, I think everyone should know that calling an illegal is a refs nightmere. I have done HS games with very respected officials have been told do not check the stick. Most of the time these games are complete blowouts (10 goal difference in the 4th) and putting a team man down for 3 minutes is not a good for the game. You can always warn the player about the stick. Most coaches who are dominating a game at the HS level where it is growing I think understand the issues. Being down that many goals and possibly late in a season can lead to cheap shots, so they know the ref is just trying to keep it clean. I agree this is terrible from enforcing the rules, but it does help the game from an enjoyment aspect. I would never do something like this in a regular college game. You should be smart enough to have your stick checked before the game, and if you are down by a lot of goals then mature enough to handle the loss.

I can assure you that any time I find a stick on my tape that is close to being illegal then I am going to ask my partner to look at the stick possibly with another tape measure. This deals with the different types of errors which is confusing. If the stick is illegal on both tapes or too close to call on one and illegal on the other then you are going to sit. If the stick is too to call close on one and legal with another tape you might get a pass with a warning that the stick is close.

One thing every young official should be able to do during a game is not be afraid to ask for help. I have worked with guys who are more experienced and they have asked me for help on different calls. Asking for help is always a good thing.

[Sonny]

This does present an interesting question. Can a coach call for a stick check after a goal in OT and have the goal removed? Since it is sudden victory I would assume no. Any thoughts LaxRef.

No. Once a goal is scored in sudden victory OT, the game is over. There is an AR in the NCAA book about this very same scenario.