Fights

[cjwilhelmi]

Thanks

[TexOle]

I will put this in the hat, if you make a call that needs to be made didn't the player who commited the penalty decide the game since he commited the foul. I was doing a game in Southern Minnesota and I had to make late in the game. I was the only official and I saw A1 clock B1 from behind on the sideline late in the game. I could have called a loose ball push, illegal body check, cross check, unnecessary roughness, or give the ball to team A on the out of bounds. I called a cross check. Team A's coach yelled Thank you because he was quite happy that someone would actually call that penalty so nobody got hurt. He coaches other sports, and he has always told me he would prefer consistency and protecting players than winning a game. Apparently this coached nearly kicked a kid off a team during a game for taking a dive and having is opponent asessed a penalty.

I also umpire baseball. I have had coaches argue everything. The most important thing is to remain consistent and just tell the coach. Now I did let my consistency falter when one team was down a large amount, and for the sake of pride I tried to get the team some runs. The coaches and parents knew that was my goal.

To answer the question of defending oneself. Usually a fight happens because one player has something done to them so they retaliate. I am usually likely to give each player involved an unsportsmanlike conduct as a result no matter what their involvement is. My hope is that the players have learned their lesson. The coaches might also want to talk to the players. A fight earns a suspension usually, and most coaches realize that they do not need a player suspended so that player will sit for some time. I did have some games involving fights like the ones described by Corbin down in another town in Southern Minnesota. A1 pushes B1. B1 dives wrapping up A1's ankles. B1 just starts beating the tar out of A1. I tossed B1 for his involvement. A1 got the UC for being involved. More than likely something had happened that I am not aware of at that point. I know that sounds terrible that I call penalties I do not see or hear, but it has been my experience that when a player gets a penalty they calm down dramatically. B1 was ejected from the game. My best advice is to tell your players not to retaliate. Also hope you never see anything like I saw in one of my first games this year where we broke up a little scuffle on the field. Once the players got to the penalty box they started fighting there. They were both ejected which got plenty of arguments from the coaches. I have no clue what we said to the coaches to end the arguments, but eventually we got back to the game.

[Dan Wishengrad]

It sounds like you used great judgement, TexOle, in the first example you cite above. I too had to unfortunately call too many games as a 1-man crew during my time (and this is the TOUGHEST job there is for a Lax ref!), and whenever that was the case I would clearly tell both coaches during the certification that i cant really watch off-ball stuff -- but if I did catch something dirty away from the ball i would penalize it severely. This usually worked and I actually had some good games where both teams understood the situation and helped me keep everything under control.

In the other scenario, a good ref crew should be able to prevent retaliation by quick and decisive action. If the player punched is walking away and the puncher follows to throw more blows, the punchee can NOT "defend himself" without being tossed too. But a competent crew should be able to prevent the need for him to have to defend himself. Freeze the benches, blow loud whistles, use a loud voice and get between the two players -- if the ref can do so without bringing himself into danger of being hit in the cross-fire.

There was only one fight in all the games I ever worked that the refs couldn't control, and it was a doozy. Three years of bad blood between Victoria and Marin LC culminated in a real donnybrook during the PNLA tourney finals in Portland, about 10 years ago or so. When it happened all the three of us zebras could do was move to safety, get out our cards and start writing down numbers for ejections. The funniest thing was one Marin player who I tossed pleading vehemently that I got it wrong, he was not a brawler at all. He argued so forcefully I thought I got it wrong and went to confer with my crewmates. But another Marin player approached us and said the player in question was full of beans, had thrown many punches and we got it exactly right! Truth and justice were served...

[LaxRef]

Guys, this is all great discussion, but I'd like to point out one thing:

I think it's incumbent upon us in this forum to refrain from talking specifically about the teams involved in the incidents we're describing, or giving details that allow people to figure it out. I think it's great to use examples from real play, but maybe better to say, "In this one game I was doing. . ." I'll sometimes even fudge details like the date, score, time remaining, etc., so people don't think I'm talking about them, and I don't advertise my location for the same reason.

I think this is important for a few reasons. First, it prevents people from thinking we're talking ill of them, even if we aren't. Second, it sets the tone to keep people from coming on here and saying "The officials in the Cal vs. USC game today just sucked! They blew this call and that call. . ."

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[jessexy]

not a lacrosse referee, but i do ref soccer. i would eject two teammates fighting each other in a heartbeat. it happened this past season in an English Premier League game. 2 Newcastle players (Kieron Dyer and Lee Bowyer) started throwing bolos at each other. nobody new what was going on and everything just froze for a couple of seconds. the were borken up by players from the opposing team. The referee did right and sent both of them off immediately and Newcastle played 2 men down for the rest of the game.

there is no question you have to send to teammates off for fighting because fighting is not a part of the game at any level. even in the NLL, you would send the two players off ( to different penalty boxes, hopefully).

on referee consistency: if you call the simple fould at the beginning of the game and establish the flow of the match, you shouldnt have to be calling the same fouls in the 4th quarter. the players will have already discovered that they cannot do this certain foul because youve called it all game. and a good player, his captain, and his coach will know they have done wrong (even in the 4th) cuz youve established that those type of fouls are fouls in this game. then you dont have to explain yourself or feel bad that you've "decided the game" cuz of one foul called.

besides, a referee never decides a game. those teams have 89 other minutes to score a goal. if i call a penalty kick in the 90th, its cuz one team is palying desperately cuz they havent scored for the entire game.

[Dulax31]

I think as a ref in the Championship game you should "let the kids play" a little more then you would in a regular season game. I am not saying that you shouldnt make the call, but you let the play dictate the game and not your calls. As for the 4th quarter of the championship game, I can see both sides of letting them play and making consistent calls. I guess that decision is a ref by ref decision on how they are going to influence the game. I know if I was reffing a championship game where the score is tight in the winding minutes I would be reluntant to make an iffy call like a slash or a hold.

[laxfan25]

An iffy slash call? If it is a slash that you would normally call during the game, I would hope they would call it even at the end of a tight game. Otherwise the team that is over-agressive and violating the rules is definitely getting the advantage. I'm sure the attackman getting whacked would appreciate the support!

[Dulax31]

An iffy slash call? If it is a slash that you would normally call during the game, I would hope they would call it even at the end of a tight game. Otherwise the team that is over-agressive and violating the rules is definitely getting the advantage. I'm sure the attackman getting whacked would appreciate the support!

dude, a slash is not a Black and White call.

[laxfan25]

Dude, I understand completely. I was just saying if in your judgement it would be a slash in the 1st quarter, it should likley be one in the fourth.

[Rob Graff]

Laxref 25 has it correct.

Coaches and teams can - and the good ones do - adapt to how the game is called from the outset. Once we know that we adjust and play the game. For the standard to change at the end of the game is just wrong.

Note though that my view of how the game should be called changes by what level the players are at skill wise and age-wise. What is a push in HS may not be one in College. What is a slash in College may not be in Men's club, and so on.

So if something is not a slash in the 1rst, it shouldn't be one in the 4th. And if something is not a push in the 1rst it shouldn't be one in the 4th.

I tell you - i was really imprssed with the officials at the NCAA' Final game. Making the call v. Duke at the end of the game was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, even though it effectively precluded any realistic comback. I saw consistency in all the calls. What happened at the end of the 4th was that Duke went outside of what had been allowed all game.

In contrast, J. Christmas was called for a slash by an official that I personally think was a "payback" for Christmas complaining vehemently and openly about not getting a slash call on JHU after Christmas scored a goal. Why? 1. Same official, 2. Christmas' conduct was nothing in severity compared to what had gone on the whole game during riding 3. Reletively close in time to the public complaint; and, 4. The game was not out of control, necessitating a call to get it under control. What confirmed it for me was that two others I was with - who each have over 25 years in the sport at highest levels - agreed with me independently.

[laxfan25]

Note though that my view of how the game should be called changes by what level the players are at skill wise and age-wise. What is a push in HS may not be one in College. What is a slash in College may not be in Men's club, and so on.

Obviously, having reffed a certain large Harvard alumni defenseman playing for the Twin Cities men's team - he feels that there is NO such thing as a slash call in men's club! Come on! His arm is still attached...by the tendons.
I agree also that the championship game was as well officiated as any I have seen over the past 20 years.

[Rob Graff]

All I can say in my defense is that when an official tells me to "get stick" - I do on the next check. Before such a "suggestion" I'm just trying to make a play.

And I really don't throw that hard of a check

[ducks]

[laxfan25]

All I can say in my defense is that when an official tells me to "get stick" - I do on the next check. Before such a "suggestion" I'm just trying to make a play.

And they always say there's no such thing as a "free" slash! Right.
It's always "Hey, hey - get some stick there!" as the attackman goes and tries to collect his belongings, body parts and dignity. Tsk-tsk.

[Lax_Stats]

Great discussion thread here!! For the first situation 2 players from the same team fighting. I would flag them both and toss them both. This way you set the precedent, you ref by the book, and they both learn if they are dumb enough to fight, especially as team mates, they have to pay the consequences.

Officiating consistency is very important from the start of the game to the end of the game. However, different game situations such as overtime or championship games call for perhaps a bit more latitude in letting the players play the game. We all know when it comes to stick checks that there is a lot of "touching up" the man with the ball. I allow players to touch each other up as it is part of the game, however I'm only going to give the player a couple of shots at touching up the man and these aren't slashes. (mere contact in and of itself does not constitute a foul) Once the little voice in my head goes off telling me the defending player is more touching up the guy with the ball and not really attempting to dislodge the ball or play the stick or a gloved hand on the stick, that is where I tell the defending player to get stick. If he continues playing the man the same way he was before I tell him to get stick, I'll flag him for a slash the next time he he smacks any part of the player with the ball that isn't the stick or a gloved hand on the stick.

[Danny Hogan]

i like hearing the ref's perspective. I completely identify with what dan w can admit now that he doesn't ref anymore.

big games, overtime, experienced teams = swallow the whistle

no advantage gained, no foul.


on another note, after playing mens club for 3 years, i love seeing coaches of prominent HS and college teams rolling around on the ground punching each other's lights out. i guess you gotta release somehow.