PNCLL Week #6 (3/8-3/14) -- Predict, Scores & Discuss

[DontSpillDaBeansWish]

Following up on a thread in the General Discussion forum -- I'm not sure how some teams keep their stats, but the number of official goalie saves recorded by Oregon State's Josh Azevedo has me really scratching my head here.

In our UW game with OSU, our team' Scorekeeper (Pat Scott) had the OSU goalie making 12 saves. I had him stopping 11. OSU reported 20 saves on their official submission. We took 29 shots for the game, and so many of these missed the cage entirely that I couldn't keep track. The save numbers were way off in this game I witnessed first-hand and kept stats on.

Then in the Missouri game this weekend, the OSU goalie was credited with 19 more saves -- even though the Tigers reported taking only 28 total shots for the game, which they won scoring 13 goals. You do the math.

None of this is meant as a knock on Azevedo, who is a fine young Goalkeeper to be sure. But to grossly inflate his stats -- making him the top Goalie in the conference in save percentage, makes no sense to me when the numbers are so far beyond statistical possibility.

Perhaps somebody from the Beavers would care to weigh in on this?

Yeah, its a good thing Tony and I have you, the biggest stickler for stats, making sure that we only get credited with the saves we deserve. =)

Makes me feel like an honest person.

[osulax]

Dan

You reported earlier that you were having trouble with math, so I thought I would help out. Josh Azevedo's save percentage in the above mentioned games are accurate. In the Missouri game, (a game in which we kept their stats, including shots) Josh recorded 19 saves. The reason you are having trouble with the math is that our stat girl doesn't count a goal as a shot, she counts it as a goal. I hope that helps.

In the Washington game, I had a friend keep independent stats due to the fact that I believe all teams, including our own, have a tendency to concentrate more fully on their own team than the opposing team. The stat girl reported 20 saves and that is what I submitted. If only we were all as perfect at keeping stats as you are, Dan.

In the future, please do not make references to the integrity of myself, the Oregon State Lacrosse team, or the people associated with the team, unless it is in a positive manner. I hope this clears up the issue.

Mitch Hutchinson
OSU Head Coach

[onpoint]

But is not a goal also a shot? If someone scores a goal, they had to take a shot to do so. Perhaps that will be cleared up for future reports.

[Linfield]

The reality is that how stats are kept is an imperfect science at best. Much like the issue over assists last year, where one team claimed to have had an assist on 86% of their goals, (yes I did the math) a number that was triple that of other teams in the league. Granted stats affect player acheivement, that is why nominations from coaches are so important in the all-star balloting. However, I don't see anybody coming back to tout that they led the league in saves in '06. Wins and losses are all that really matter in the end.

[timekeeper]

I've been keeping three sets of numbers for Willamette. The first number is the shot attempts (anything and everything directed towards the cage including blocked shots, wide shots, hitting the pipes, etc.), the second number is the shots (shots on goal that were either blocked, saved or scored) and the third number is, of course, the number of goals. Saves are determined by subtracting goals from shots and not from shot attempts. Is this not the way to keep those stats?

[kankrum83]

As an outside observer, it seems to me a better way to handle this situation would have been to contact the OSU program directly if you had a problem with their reporting.

To me, formally accusing someone in a public forum without evidence to backup your accusation is cowardice, and shows a lack of respect for the parties involved. In additition, it solves nothing. Moreover, it just causes further problems.

The current group of individuals in charge of the OSU program are a group full of character and integrity. To come and formally attack them in a public forum does nothing to prove a point; in fact all it does is show the lack of character and integrity in the accusee.

I hope in the future this forum can be used to talk about subjects that really matter to the sport of lacrosse; not to nit pick about stats because you have the second highest rated goalie in the league, in terms of save percentages. That is not meant to take anything away from Tony, or for that matter any other goalie in the league. I know how good they all are, and at the end of the day all that really matters is the score on the board.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Kevin Ankrum
OSU Alum

[onpoint]

The way we do in Vail and here at CSU:

Someone makes an attempt on goal, you write down their number as a "shot."

If their shot misses the goal, you do nothing further.

If their shot is saved, you put a circle around it.

If their shot goes in the goal, you put a circle around it and put a dot inside the circle.

Seems simple enough . . .

[TheNino57]

I don't feel that Dan was insinuating that OSU was stat-gauging. I think he was making reference to the fact that a lot of team's save percentage stats are somewhat "off" and he used OSU as an example. By his count, the numbers didn't add up and he wanted the people involved to be aware so they can fix anything that isn't accurate or perhaps missing so that everything WOULD add up. But then, I'm not Dan. I know Dan to be a stand-up guy and I can't imagine him trying to "attack" anyone publicly on these forums.

[TheBearcatHimself]

Geez I don't know what all this fuss is about, if you simply look at the stats Jeff Gordon for OSU has the best save % in the league at .706, not Azevedo. Must be something in the water down there

(I know Jeff from West so there is no insult here for those who might think that, keep up the good work Gordo, all the Beavers too for that matter)

[Laxfan23]

The problem with the saves stat is that it is a bit subjective. Was the ball going to go in if the goalie didn't get a hold of it? Did it hit the goalie before it bounced away? Did the goalie get a piece of that before it went by? Did it hit the stick before it hit the pipe? And of course, did the stat keeper just plain miss a save?

Because there are not objective stat-keepers at the game, all the stats are going to be a bit off. I remember at one of the Albertson games last year a fan had a "saves" board up for Gaudet. Every time the Yote goalie made a save he put a big "S" up on the board. His saves board ended up having five or six extra S's on it than the stats had on them that night. My point is that different people see different things. Maybe the saves board guy was so honed in on the goalie that he caught more, or maybe he just wanted to post more S's and so he gave Gaudet a break on some "saves."

In any case, the stats should just be for fun. Until we get objective stat-keepers (most likely never), people should look at them as such.

[Dan Wishengrad]

For the record:

What I stated publicly is that I have a problem with how some stats are being kept. This is based on my first-hand observation from two weeks ago, and in continuation of a thread from the General Discussion section of this Forum. I stated it publicly and WELCOMED comments from OSU here for what I hoped would be a constructive discussion. For this I have been accused of cowardice by one responder, and also for attacking the integrity and character of an entire team by two people, including the Head Coach.

I have done nothing on this forum and in game reports except comsistently sing the praises of the Oregon State Lacrosse club for the past two seasons. If anything I have gone overboard in doing so.

But perhaps I hit a nerve with this issue -- who knows? Teams are free to keep their own stats and report whatever they come up with.

[WaterBoy]

As much as it sounds odd- I think there is a larger lesson to be learned from this episode, and it's been stated before- you never know who's checking what.

Regardless of whether the stats are accurate or not, the fact that public attention is being drawn to them is a good thing for the sport. The pressure that this creates for accurate stat keeping will help the league legitimize itself in the future.

I think the first primary step necessary to eke out stat padding is to recognize where bias exists. For instance, I know which teams I prefer in the league, and try not to comment on them as much since I know I have a bias- in a same fasion- attempting to be as objective as possible is not likely unless each person is willing to admit to their own bias in reference to each subjective decision during the game (i.e. Was that shot on cage? Should that be counted as a save? Was that shot assisted?).

[grinderpete]

I agree that things tend to be skewed toward the team taking the stats. I looked at the BYU v Michigan stats after thier game a few weeks ago. Both use the same stat program so it was easy to match them up. The differences were not astronomical but they were there. I think what people are saying here is that, we know that there is going to be differences in stats, but it is wrong to add stats for your team because you are dating the guy or he bought you lunch the other day. Just make sure that you are as fair as you can possibly be. It is hard to do.

[osulax]

Oregon State 10
Texas 9

[tiki monster]

Oregon 13
Minnesota-Duluth 4