Crips Founder Williams Denied Clemency

[Tim Whitehead]

Whether someone is a celebrity or not doesn't matter if they get involved. I'm sure there were hundreds of thousands of people that got involved and fought one way or another over this case. Just because someone is a celebrity it doesn't mean they should be condemned for getting involved. They have the same say as everyone else.

[Jolly Roger]

Just because someone is a celebrity it doesn't mean they should be condemned for getting involved. They have the same say as everyone else.

Although I think we all would agree that we don't appreciate those celebrities who's motivation (conscious or otherwise) is to be in front of the camera and create an inflated sense of self.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Just because someone is a celebrity it doesn't mean they should be condemned for getting involved. They have the same say as everyone else.

Although I think we all would agree that we don't appreciate those celebrities who's motivation (conscious or otherwise) is to be in front of the camera and create an inflated sense of self.

Count me as one who doesnt agree, Jolly Roger. Sure celebs like to be in front of the camera, and are motivated to get as much exposure as they can. But we are celebrity-obsessed in this country, and people listen to what they have to say. As Tim noted, sometimes they have something meaningful to say -- and by being celebs they get covered when they DO speak.

Actors have become President (Reagan), Governor (Reagan, Schwarzenegger), US Senator (George Murphy), Mayors (Eastwood) and have held lots of other public office. Famous athletes like Bill Bradley, Jim Bunning, Steve Largent and JC Watts have served in Congress. Musicians like Bono (maybe the one of the biggest camera-hogs of all time!) has parlayed his celebrity status into heading up humanatarian causes, and good for him I say.

[Hackalicious]

Point of fact:
Then again, there is an easy way to avoid the death penalty: don't kill no body. Funny how simple that really is, no?

122 death row inmates have been exonerated before they were executed. About 1000 people were actually executed. The exonerated didn't "kill no body" (although some were sleazebags who were guilty of other crimes).

(Note: Don't interpret this as "12% of death row inmates were innocent", since many more people are on death row than have actually been executed.)

[Sonny]

One big thing that bothers me is how selective the "celebrities" are when they choose to protest. I understand they have the right to protest here in the US. But do you think we will get the same coverage/publicity when a white person is executed? For instance - Do you think Jesse Jackson & Company will all be out chanting & protesting when Scott Peterson or the killers of Matthew Sheppard are put to death?

Hack - If you believe that the death penalty isn't applied fairly - How do you explain the simple fact that there a lot more white people on Death Row then black people.

P.S. If you want to see some pictures/signs from the "protest" the other night at San Quentin Prison, check this out:
http://www.zombietime.com/tookie/

Looks like it wasn't just Anti-Death Penalty protestors there. I also learned that Hitler, Bush, and Arnold S. are to blame for Tookie's death.

[FLAK]

Looks like it wasn't just Anti-Death Penalty protestors there. I also learned that Hitler, Bush, and Arnold S. are to blame for Tookie's death.

Didn't you get the memo? Whenever someone does anything wrong in this country it's Bush's fault. I mean it was soooo his fault that that plane went off the runway and killed that kid in Chicago the other week.


I just thought it was ironic that all the people protesting against "Tookie's" death were assaulting and hounding the few people there supporting the execution. I mean if they're so worried about protecting the rights of a murdering gang member, why are they so adament to deny other's their rights? Because they disagree with them? These protestors are the biggest hipocrites of them all.

[Tim Whitehead]

One big thing that bothers me is how selective the "celebrities" are when they choose to protest. I understand they have the right to protest here in the US. But do you think we will get the same coverage/publicity when a white person is executed? For instance - Do you think Jesse Jackson & Company will all be out chanting & protesting when Scott Peterson or the killers of Matthew Sheppard are put to death?

Sonny, everyone here will be "selective" when they protest something. People stand up for causes they believe in, not just anything that might be "trendy".

[Sonny]

One big thing that bothers me is how selective the "celebrities" are when they choose to protest. I understand they have the right to protest here in the US. But do you think we will get the same coverage/publicity when a white person is executed? For instance - Do you think Jesse Jackson & Company will all be out chanting & protesting when Scott Peterson or the killers of Matthew Sheppard are put to death?

Sonny, everyone here will be "selective" when they protest something. People stand up for causes they believe in, not just anything that might be "trendy".

Maybe, maybe not. Still sounds awful hypocritical to me.

[Danny Hogan]

One big thing that bothers me is how selective the "celebrities" are when they choose to protest. I understand they have the right to protest here in the US. But do you think we will get the same coverage/publicity when a white person is executed? For instance - Do you think Jesse Jackson & Company will all be out chanting & protesting when Scott Peterson or the killers of Matthew Sheppard are put to death?

Sonny, everyone here will be "selective" when they protest something. People stand up for causes they believe in, not just anything that might be "trendy".

not jesse jackson.

[Tim Whitehead]

I'll agree with you on that one, Danny. I think he does a lot of good, but at the same time I think he often picks the Cause of The Moment just for publicity.

[KnoxVegas]

Point of fact:
Then again, there is an easy way to avoid the death penalty: don't kill no body. Funny how simple that really is, no?

122 death row inmates have been exonerated before they were executed. About 1000 people were actually executed. The exonerated didn't "kill no body" (although some were sleazebags who were guilty of other crimes).

(Note: Don't interpret this as "12% of death row inmates were innocent", since many more people are on death row than have actually been executed.)

Here is a simple maxim, amongst many, that I live by:

Do not get in the limo at 2am with an accused spousal abuser.

Meaning, if you put yourself in a bad situation, hoping only good things will happen, chances are they aren't. I tell my team this all the time. All it takes is one person in this world having a negative perception of you, and then telling enough people and you are screwed (i.e. an allegation of rape or chld abuse). A person convicted of rape but then expnerated through DNA evidence is innocent, yet their are still people that believe that the person did.

I agree that innocent people have been put to death using both the federal and state death penalties, not to mention the untold hundreds that were lynched in this country for being... I digress.

Many of these individuals that have been sentenced to death were convicted and killed in a time when the science had not caught up with the evidence (read DNA). Now with modern science, more and more of these cases are being overturned. The science is not 100% but it is light years ahead of where we were 125 years ago. Back then, there was a system in place called Anthropometry, that was all the rage amongst police departments (For more,check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Bertillon). This was a system where a suspect was identified not by fingerprint (a technique yet to be refined) but BY MEASURING THE FEATURES OF THE FACE! Not a drawing of the suspect but measurements. No think about it, could you identify someone easier by face or by say the length of their right ear lobe?

Do you know of The Innocence Project? From their website:

"The Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University, founded by Barry C. Scheck and Peter J. Neufeld in 1992, is a non-profit legal clinic and criminal justice resource center. We work to exonerate the wrongfully convicted through postconviction DNA testing; and develop and implement reforms to prevent wrongful convictions. This Project only handles cases where postconviction DNA testing can yield conclusive proof of innocence.

For more on The Innocence Project:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

I will ask this of the forum: Ever known anyone who has been convicted of murder and sentenced to death? I had a close friend that commited three murders and we sentenced to death in the Commonwealth of Virginia. While it is unfortunate that he had to be put to death, the law of the land calls for death as the penalty for murder.

It is great that people like Stanley Williams and Wilbert Rideau (For more on Wilbert check out: http://www.wilbertrideau.com/index.html) can redeem their lives and be productive in society, after commiting murder. Yet, they are still murderers, who were either sentenced to death or life, wihtout parole. As Sammy Davis Jr. sang in the theme to Barreta "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

Famous murders (those convicted at least) in society:

Don King- Convict- Manslaughter


Charles S. Dutton- Manslaughter



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[jessexy]

Agreed. What took so long?

I love how celebrities think they can have a say in law and politics.

Uh?!? I think Arnold "the Terminator" had a pretty big say in this. How about his celebrity status?

One big thing that bothers me is how selective the "celebrities" are when they choose to protest. I understand they have the right to protest here in the US. But do you think we will get the same coverage/publicity when a white person is executed? For instance - Do you think Jesse Jackson & Company will all be out chanting & protesting when Scott Peterson or the killers of Matthew Sheppard are put to death?

Hack - If you believe that the death penalty isn't applied fairly - How do you explain the simple fact that there a lot more white people on Death Row then black people.

Scott Peterson is guilty. the guys that killed Matthew Sheppard are guilty. Tookie Williams has maintained his innocence since his arrest. He has been nominated for mulitple Nobel Peace Prizes since his conviction. That might say something about the man.....that he was recognized INTERNATIONALLY for his contributions to society from San Quentin. the world might be a better place if people on the outside could give back to society half as much as Tookie gave back. If he did kill those people, then he has paid his debt 10-fold by his work. Nobel thinks so!

and Jesse Jackson wants justice. if their is an injustice being done, then he is there. sure, he's probably opportunistic, but his prominence comes from supporting Human Rights. If Tookie Williams is guilty enough to be put to death for his "crimes" in 1979......then why isnt the guy (cant remember his name) in Alabama that bombed the church back in the '60s, killing 4 black children along the way still alive? Isnt he a member of a notoriously violent and nationally involved "gang?" or is that different because the KKK is a white gang and killing black children in '60s Alabama was socially acceptible? its also pretty clear that this KKK member hasnt offered anything to society since his crime was committed, and Tookie is proof that it can be done. and there is DNA evidence linking this man to burning down the church. where is the public outbry to put him to death?

[CATLAX MAN]

Actually, being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize is not determinative of anything. Anyone can be nominated by someone in the academia who is looking to try to gain attention to their particular cause, which is why Tookie was nominated in the first place. That's not to say that he hasn't contributed anything to society, but being nominated doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Danny Hogan]

what he said...
if the nobel people thought so much of him, he would have won it.

tookie has maintained his innocence, most prisons are full of guys maintaining their innocence. scott peterson probably maintains his innocence

if jesse jackson knew anything about the cases then he might be qualified to opine on the perceived injustices. (he couldn't even name any of the victims, i'm sure he doesn't know much about the circumstances of the crimes).

the dude in alabama deserves it as much as tookie, i dent' know why he was given life in prison instead of the death penalty. did alabama have the death penalty at the time of the trial??

the world would have been a better place if tookie was never alive.

[Hackalicious]

Hack - If you believe that the death penalty isn't applied fairly - How do you explain the simple fact that there a lot more white people on Death Row then black people.

I concede. Technically you're correct. But is 3.8% "a lot more"?

41.7% of death row inmates are black.
45.5% of death row inmates are white.

Normalizing for income, by only comparing poor whites to poor blacks, doesn't help much. Although a seperate issue, poor whites are also more likely to get harsher penalties and end up on death row as well.

Over 50% of violent crime victims among the general population are black.
Yet, about 80% of victims of death row inmates are white.

Gee. Isn't that strange. For some crazy reason, it seems like you're much likely to end up on death row if your victim is white.
Maybe you can explain that one to me.

I can't find the link on the spot, but I have seen some studies that showed that when blacks and whites are charged with the exact same crime, blacks were much more likely to get harsher penalties.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/race.htm
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510462003
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article ... =5&did=184