Defibrilators

[Npaulseth]

Our aulmni list consists of three players. Our team already does a ton of fundraising and most players complain about team dues. I think this would be a horrible reason for a team to be kicked out of the UMLL if it is mandated. Obviously I would love to have the teams to each have one ready for them in the unfortunate case of having to use it, I just don't see it reasonable to make it manditory for a club team to own one.

[laxfan25]

Defibrillators are a very good idea, if a team can afford one. Jolly Roger is being a bit harsh in his replies. What are the numbers, i.e number of lacrosse games played per year, number of times a defib would have been useful and used. The risk, while present, is small. Along the same lines you could mandate that teams must have a lightning detector at the game site, because the odds of lightning striking players or fans is probably on the same order. You could also mandate that teams must travel by a professional bus service to games because there is the chance that privately owned cars or a school-owned and student-driven van could be in a car accident. You still have a tragedy, and still have to tell a grieving parent that they have suffered a tremendous loss.
I think the poll reflects that everyone thinks it is a good idea, just not something that has to be mandated to the schools. Awareness is good, and perhaps fundraising and help from Medtronic is feasible. Many teams though are struggling to get enough funding to keep their teams "alive", and have to sort out the priorities. They are not trying to be callous or indifferent, just realistic.

[LaxRef]

I have a few thoughts on this issue.

First of all, life is full of risks. We all take risks all of the time, and we either are unaware of the risks or are aware but judge the activity at hand to be worthwhile relative to the risk.

The "putting a price on a life" argument is not sound. By accepting the premise that "you cannot put a price on a human life," you tread onto a slippery slope that inevitably leads you to conclude that you must spend as much money as possible to eliminate all risks, which is, of course, impossible. I mean, if AEDs are needed because there is a small chance someone might need one, what about other potentially-fatal-but-low-probabliity events we could throw money at?

Look at it this way: if the AEDs cost $1,000,000 per team, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because no one would be advocating them. That's because people think that the 1 in, say, 1,000 chance of a team needing it does not justify that cost (I just made up the 1 in 1,000, but the argument is the same regardless of what the actual risk is). That would mean that we're putting the value of a human life somewhere less than $1 billion (since otherwise the expected value associated with having an AED would be more than $1,000,000 and it would make sense to buy one).

My guess is that there is a much higher chance of a UMLL player being killed during travel to a game than there is of one dying from an incident in which an AED would have been called for, yet no one is advocating buying travel vehicles with side-curtain airbags and other state-of-the-art safety features even though such money is probably much more likely to prevent fatalities. Risk is all around, but we tend to overvalue the risk associated with more spectacular events. For example, there are people who drink and dirve, smoke 3 packs a day, are 50 pounds overweight, don't wear seatbelts, have cholesterol over 300, and have high blood pressure, but they won't get on an airplane because they're afraid the terrorists are going to kill them!

Similarly, people commonly focus on one risk when they or their friends or family have been exposed to it personally. For example, if someone's wife dies of a rare disease, they may devote their lives to raising awareness of the disease and trying to raise money for a cure even though that same money is perhaps better spent--in terms of the greatest good to the population--on funding research for a disease which is more common and which has a better prognosis for finding a cure. This is not to say that those people don't have the right to focus their efforts on that disease, only that in terms of cost and benefit to the population at large, there may be a better place to focus that time and effort.

Now, none of this is to say that AEDs are not a good idea. They probably won't be needed, and if they are needed they don't guarantee that the victim will survive, but I think it's great to have them there. They are easy to use, and they do not cost $1,000,000. However, I am loathe to support the idea of requiring every team in the UMLL to buy one. As far as I know, they are not the standard for college club sports in this country. Certainly, making each club buy one to have on the sidelines for 15 games or so per year seems excessive.

I liked the idea of having a few AEDs that could be moved around from site to site, but there's the problem that if there happen to be more game sites than AEDs on one day, then some game does without, and if that's the game when someone needs it, you're definitely exposed to lawsuits, both as a league and as individual teams.

What about this: can the teams lobby their schools' rec sports departments to acquire a few AEDs that teams can sign out if they have someone on their staff certified to use them? Maybe if the lacrosse club offers to contribute $500, and then a few other clubs could do the same, and the school pitched in a few bucks, you could have 2 or 3 available to sign out without each lacrosse club having to shell out $2000.

[canders23]

Here's my nickels worth of free advice,

An AED is something that every team/ league should develop a plan to have at every contest. It may not happen for every team but they should have a plan to budget it for the future.
There is something we can inact this year. A pre-participation physical, at the team level. Its one way to foresee possible problems before they occur. I don't know if it happen throughout the MDIA, or if teams/leagues already have this in place, but it is one small way prevent instances for-mentioned on this website and throughout the amateur sports world.

[Jolly Roger]

Certainly, making each club buy one to have on the sidelines for 15 games or so per year seems excessive.

Not to nitpick (although I am) if every team has one, then it's available for them at practice which probably more than triples your estimate.

As far as fundraising think of what you can do, not what you can't do:

Say a team's roster is 25 players. Then, if the coach or the Rec Sprots department on behalf of the team sends a donation letter to parents and each players' parents donate an average of $50, you've raised more than half the cost. Then each plater dedicates the $30 they'd spend on one or two weekends of dates, drinking, movies, etc, I bet you'd make up the rest.

Talk to your Rec Sports department or a local hospital/firestation/ambulance service and ask if they'd split the cost with you.

Get creative- it's easy to say "we can't - it's too hard".

[wheelz33]

Jolly Roger, this is obviously a personal issue for you, and everybody respects that. However, I don't believe people are trying to take the easy way out and say it's too hard, I think people are just thinking the risk vs cost for this matter isn't at the point where people beleive it should be mandated. As LaxRef stated so well in his post, everyday a cost is placed on life, like it or not. It seems that everybody supports having the AED at games, but making it mandated may be too much too fast for some.

[LaxRef]

As far as fundraising think of what you can do, not what you can't do:

Say a team's roster is 25 players. Then, if the coach or the Rec Sprots department on behalf of the team sends a donation letter to parents and each players' parents donate an average of $50, you've raised more than half the cost. Then each plater dedicates the $30 they'd spend on one or two weekends of dates, drinking, movies, etc, I bet you'd make up the rest.

The problem is that, most likely, the parents will not donate an average of $50. Many (most?) of them are going to say, "We just paid the damn tuition bill, my car needs new brakes, and junior's asking us for $1000 just so he can play lacrosse. There's no way I'm giving $50 more for some medical equipment the school should be providing." And if the car needs new brakes, that's sure a better wat to spend the money, since the probability that that saves a life is much higher.

Similarly, many students will be thinking, "Geez, I never get to go out as it is because we're always practicing and going to games, and I never have any cash because of how much I'm spending to play lacrosse. There's no way I'm taking the little bit of cash I have left to have a little fun and spending it on something that we'll probably never need!"

This last point is especially important: it has been my experience that younger people, especially younger males, tend to de-value risk. In other words, many of them think nothing will ever happen to them. For example, you should hear high school--and even college--players whine when you suspend a lacrosse game because of lightning; they want to keep playing. How do you think you're going to get that fraction of a team to cough up $30 against a threat they see as highly improbable and distant when they don't even respond to a very real, immediate threat?

Again, it's a great idea, but you just can't take all of the risk out of lacrosse no matter how much money you force people to spend.

[Jolly Roger]

The problem is that, most likely, the parents will not donate an average of $50... the parents are going to say,... " There's no way I'm giving $50 more for some medical equipment the school should be providing."

As a parent I know I could come up with a way to find $50 for this use. If, on the other hand parents feel strongly that the school should provide them, they should contact the school and work together to find options to get the AEDs in place.

This last point is especially important: it has been my experience that younger people, especially younger males, tend to de-value risk. In other words, many of them think nothing will ever happen to them.

Here is really the biggest hurdle - you're spot-on. My quote should really read " We can't - it's too hard to pay for this and anyhow we're indestructable."

Please note the heavy sarcasm here - I know that no college aged students have died recently in the upper midwest.

[Chris Larson]

Please note the heavy sarcasm here - I know that no college aged students have died recently in the upper midwest.

Let's be careful here. There area a lot of us who have lost players, teammates, classmates for a variety of reasons.

Regardless, please remember that as young people you are not indestructible. My lacrosse family recently marked the 3rd anniversary of one of our players disappearance and death. My take home message is to be careful, take a millisecond to think before acting, don't get into questionable circumstances when alone, and most importantly, look out for each other.

[WCLLPREZ]

Since the originator of the post stated his intention was to spark discussion for all over the MDIA, let me give some perspective-mine, from out in the WCLL and California. I have been the Head Coach at Santa Clara for the past 20 years. I am a physical therapist and previously a paramedic. I stay certified in CPR and have been a former CPR instructor as well.

Santa Clara is a small school, 4500 under grad enrollment, costs 45K/year in tuition, room and board. The lacrosse club averages around 30 players per season during my tenure. Our team budget is over $60,000 this year which puts us at 7th highest of all sports on our campus. Our team dues are $500.00 and the spring break travel allotment costs about another $500.00 per year depending upon location.

Two years ago, after the tragic death of a Cornell lacrosse player, I decided that not having an AED on our field for both our men's and women's teams at all times was not a risk I could take given my background and training. It took us about 20 minutes to raise the $2000.00 at our annual spring alumni game. As always, we have a table set up with all our lacrosse logo wear to sell and we posted that all proceeds of sales for the weekend would go to the cost of the defibrillator. Record sales for the event and the side donations without merchandise purchase were also spectacular, all because the "cause" was quite apparent. Now, we have the AED on our equipment cart which is at every practice and home game. If both teams have games at different sites, the AED does travel with the men's team as first priority. Our recreation and club sports department has also purchased two AED's for the Rec. center and our campus EMT's also have them on their carts. Club sports require that two club members are required to maintain CPR and first aid certification at all times so we are covered there. Our league also requires that we have some sort of medical coverage at all games, so someone to use the device is always present at games.

As someone who has needed to perform CPR and used defibrillators on many occasions in the past, this seems like a no brainer. Find the way to get the thing!!! If for nothing else, if you value your coach or your club sport director at all, having it present and having someone there trained to use it offers them some protection legally in case something ever happens.

I don't know if Minn. is different that California in the legal arena, but out here, there is always an attorney willing to bring suit for steps not taken as well as for those that were done. I know I am not in any financial position, nor would I risk the financial future of my family, my club sports director or my university should I or they be named in a suit claiming damages for not having a device with the potential to save someone's life, especially when the there is so much news about how beneficial they can be.

Feel free to PM me if you want to find out how we are able to keep our dues so low, equip our players fully, travel using buses only, and maintain a fairly high budget. I would be happy to share our fundraising ideas with anyone.

[Sonny]

Feel free to PM me if you want to find out how we are able to keep our dues so low, equip our players fully, travel using buses only, and maintain a fairly high budget. I would be happy to share our fundraising ideas with anyone.

Good post Gary. Thanks for sharing your insights. I would ask that you post your general fundraising ideas ("team tips") in the main forum, so that all can gain some of your knowledge. (Not just the UMLL fans.).

thanks!

[Jolly Roger]

Two years ago, after the tragic death of a Cornell lacrosse player, I decided that not having an AED on our field for both our men's and women's teams at all times was not a risk I could take given my background and training. It took us about 20 minutes to raise the $2000.00 at our annual spring alumni game. .... As someone who has needed to perform CPR and used defibrillators on many occasions in the past, this seems like a no brainer. Find the way to get the thing!!!

Thank you!!!

[fischman]

I think it is a great idea to mandate life saving devices at games. Again, with the risk of sounding really really repetitive... a lot of teams dont have the money. If there were anyway we could get the money we would. But... even with our dues and fundraising, we only have enough money to cover league dues and travel expenses... barely. At small schools, especially private, where a very high number of the team comes from out of state, it is impossible to have an alum game to get any money. After league dues are paid, OOC games are paid for, and travel expenses are taken care of, we would gladly use the rest of our money to buy a device... problem is... we won't have any money left.

[TexOle]

Most schools already have them. You just need to ask who has it and what it would take to get it at a game. Most neutral sites have them. Olaf is lucky in the fact that public safety and the EMT student org have them. While it might not be on the field it could be ther in less than five minutes. Unfortunately the Olaf club sports groups don't know these things due to some upper leadership problems within the school. Students at Olaf have a tremendous amount of services free to them, but nobody tells the students about these services. I remember our old club sports director complaining about non students in the athletic building. If another person was injured severely it was up to the other school to provide care. Our trainers and others involved at Olaf do not feel that way. I knew that a defibulator would probably start being required at games a few years ago. When I mentioned this to our Dean of Students he wanted to know what he could do to provide the team with one for home games. When I worked on Student Government at Olaf I found out about the Olaf EMT, and there were students that wanted to cut the program since nobody knew about it. I don't think making teams pay for them is beneficial, but the school's should have them. Students should have access to them. This is not something that benefits a team, but all students.

[Dylan Dickey]

Yesterday I stopped in to our campus rec. office, spent 5 minutes sharing my concern about this issue, and walked away with permission to use a state owned AED on our home and travel weekends (with the exception of our california dates, due to the extended period of time) and paid training for 3 club members (the AED training will accompany CPR training). This also inspired campus rec. to get other sports clubs involved and will be following up with those concerns on Monday.

Talk to your campus rec., talk to your campus safety director. If you pitch the need correctly, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to make a small effort to keep you and your club safer.

Fielding as small of a team as we do now and have in the recent past, Mankato understands the financial struggle most other clubs face. In this case there are ways around it. Make an effort.

Dylan Dickey
President - MSU Mankato Men's Lacrosse Club
Player's Rep. - UMLL Division A