Big Ten Tournament/U of Wisconsin discussion

[wheelz33]

going along with the travel side of things, i love being able to travel the country playing lacrosse. i think that is one of the many benefits of playing college ball. getting to see different college campuses and college bars is one of the many things i will always remember. (and of course the countless number of girls.... ) more then worth the money to me personally.

[Jolly Roger]

Officiating problems:
Why not invite clinicians to come to the tournament to use it as a training tournament for officials. This way you have USL trained officials reviewing most of the games.

How can USL effectively train officials, particularly for COC certification, in a tournament using rules other than those in the NCAA or federation rulebook?

[bste_lax]

I thought I would add my $5.28 on the situation.

1) I have dealt with Hal about 4 years (3 as a player for Iowa and 1 year as a coach last fall), really nice guy. He just seems content on being a laid back club team which many teams, like Iowa my freshmen year, was the old keg on the sideline and whoever showed up, played. He formed the GLLC after many midwest teams joined the GRLC. He had tried recruiting us (Iowa) a couple years to join it but we felt we wanted to solidify the club team into something a little more than it would have been if we had gone with them. If Hal wants to keep it real relaxed, more power to him and the team, that is their choice.

2) Iowa has played in every MadCity Tourney they have had (5 years now), its their other tournament they hold in September, not this new Big Ten one. We always liked it as it was an early tournament for team bonding experiences as well as a chance to play some teams we didn't normally play during the spring season (Western Michigan, Duluth, Michigan State, all the little Wisconsin schools, etc.) as well as the older guys getting a chance to experience the Madison nightlife. We go into it knowing it's not going to be a super-serious tournament. They always only ever have 1-2 refs per game and not always COC refs either. Sometimes you are going to play in some real mud pits of a field. The entrance fee isn't too bad but you know you what you are paying for, so we (Iowa) never had any major complaints with it. Like I said about the "relaxed atmosphere", I have seen other teams drinking beers at the field, one of our coaches got jumped by another team out at the bars one night over stuff that took place at the field earlier that day. With that said, Michigan State, you guys have played in their MadCity tournament at least two times before so you should have known what to expect.

3) As for the Wisconsin players, like I said before, it's your choice to have your team however you want but probably not in the best interest of all to come on here spouting at people. Different teams, different rules plus it's fall ball. And as someone pointed out earlier, you guys could afford playing in USL MDIA if you wanted to, you choose not to (once again, that's your choice), but don't make excuses of can't afford to play in the league as one of your reasons you don't want to be in the USL MDIA.

At this point, I am just rambling. If anyone has any questions more on something I may have said, I don't mind giving my opinion on it. I am not a Wisconsin player so I can't comment on everything (or anything directly related to their team) but as someone who has dealt with their team in the past and has played in their tournament in the past, I have a decent idea of what's going on around the Midwest.

[dmsaban]

POV = point of view...

I was video taping from the opposite side of the field and I had the same point of view as the ref that made the call. The whistle was blown after #6 (the second defender to engage) made contact with the back of #39 with his legs and then leaned into him, forcing him back to the ground. I believe that is how the ref justified the push call.

You won't see it on the clip posted here (because it is shot from the front of the "attackman", #39, who fell - not the back where you would see a push). If I get some time later tonight I'll make a link available.

You've got to give some props to Lee (#39), though, he played a hell of a game - and as a guy with my best playing years behind me, I can tell you I've felt my leg strength give out during a game just like that. And I'll give some props to the MSU long sticks - they were talented and athletic... and obviously enthusiatic.

[tamu33]

How can USL effectively train officials, particularly for COC certification, in a tournament using rules other than those in the NCAA or federation rulebook?

To answer shortly COC certification isn't achieved by attending a tournament.

But, training on mechanics such as hand signals and field position are paramount at all levels of officiating. The application of the rules no matter what level is understood by these officials (clinicians). All officials have done tournaments where the rules are doctored. And especially in non-traditional locations, tournaments are the best training grounds. LAcrosse REferee DevlOpment Programs (LAREDOs) are used throughout the US.

From the US lacrosse website:
There are distinct advantages to LAREDO training programs:
A. Officials gain access to appropriate levels of competition when they are ready for advanced training. New officials can gain sophisticated two-man experience summer camp programs. Established officials can upgrade their three-man skills through regional lacrosse tournaments, and advanced officials can further polish their techniques by participating in elite tournaments.
B. The nationwide standardization of mechanics and rules interpretations are reinforced.
C. Knowledge is multiplied, as officials return to their respective US Lacrosse districts and share their advanced officiating experiences with their colleagues.
D. Camaraderie develops as officials interact as national crews.
E. Officials gain national exposure

[dmsaban]

As for Italy... it's not an official "team trip." The reason it is not is because of the fundraising and accounting restrictions put in place by the University.

There had to be a real separation of funds in order for team members to "on their own" help raise the money to cover their expenses. Nothing is being covered by the team, the team dues, or the University - this is an example of how the UW club has difficulty raising funds under the University's restrictions, not an example of how well the club can raise money (that could be used for MDIA expenses).

Maybe the club will figure out a way to bring in money under the school's restrictions, but that too would take more commitment from club members to nail down.

[John Paul]

Is that Lee Lowenthal on the video? I know Lee. Haven't spoken with him since he was a high school senior. Say hello for me.

[Sonny]

Ali,

(To the best of my knowledge) There are only two LAREDO events each year, both of them at established, well-run tournaments:
Vail Shootout
Texas A&M Fall Classic

Both (LAREDO) events use one or more US Lacrosse clinicians to help train officials using standardized rules. Normally to attend a LAREDO event, you have to be recommended by your USL District Governor or District Assignor.

Yes, many lacrosse officials have worked events where the "rules are doctored." This is mainly due to the low number of overall officials and the fact that most experienced officials work multiple levels of the game (Youth, H.S., College, Club).

But to suggest that the club tournament in Madison is a good training opportunity for officials is a big stretch in my book. It is clearly NOT a LAREDO event. Furthermore, you typically do not want new officials anywhere near the club game.

Please continue the discussion about officiating issues in the Rules & Officiating Forum:
http://forums.uslia.com/viewforum.php?f=32

[tamu33]

There will be no LAREDO at Texas A&M this year. They are looking to move it because of the logistics of traveling to college station.

[Adam Gamradt]

Sonny said "I would welcome the UW program to the MDIA fold"

I wouldn't.

I've been in three tournaments with them here in Minnesota.

They've left early every time.

Hal wants to run his own show, with his rules, with his refs, so let's just leave him be.

If anyone wants to play in a different environment next fall, come on up for the Hot Dish Tournament. We'll most likely have two mens club teams, as well as some good college programs like UMN, UMD, Minnesota State, etc. UW may come too, but I'd certainly welcome a rematch between MSU and UW.

Adam Gamradt

[cbrockman9]

I understand that I am beating a dead horse, but...

I am a member of the UW-Madison Club team, I was unable to play in the Big Ten Tournament (out of town), and I felt that after reading the posts concerning the tournament I should offer up some objective observations

First, I would be embarassed to be associated with the MSU lacrosse program after reading the posts by both players and coaches. No self-respecting coach would lack the class and integrity to post complaints on an internet message board. Players decide games, not refs. MSU believes they have some elite program, well I have some bad news, they don't. Do you really think John Desko or Bill Tierney would ever post grievances on a blog? Get a clue.

Second, As someone else mentioned, Hal (the UW coach) put many hours into organizing the tournament all of you were so quick to gripe and complain about. Show some appreciation.

Third, with regards to the league that we (UW) belong to versus any other, all I can say is, we have just as much talent as any other club team we've played in the midwest. I thank Hal for not joining any 'poser' NCAA league of club lax. I was fortunate enough to play lacrosse at a Div. III school (Franklin and Marshall) during my undergraduate years and I am grateful to Hal for the opportunity to prolong my lacrosse 'career' during graduate school, which I would not be able to do in the other leagues. Hal has created a great lax community and genuine commraderie. We don't want or care about matching uniforms or 6am practices. With regards to our Italy trip, you have to be either spiteful, jealous, or stupid -- or perhaps all three -- to think that the trip is just about lacrosse. It's a trip to Italy not to East Lansing. Unfortunately I (like a group of others) will not be able to make the trip due to the financial committment. Regardless, the players that are going have worked hard to raise money for the amazing opportunity.

Furthermore, for all the players that sought out heightened competition and commitment from their college lacrosse experience, you should have attempted to play ncaa sanctioned lacrosse...oh, oops. Most of our players have extensive lacrosse experience and understand the huge difference between a varsity commitment and a club commitment.

Finally, the bottom line is this: Wisconsin won and Michigan State lost. Conjure up all the injustices and conspiracies you want, the Spartans lost.

I could go on forever. All I can offer up in the way of solutions for MSU's dilemna is, don't play games you are afraid to lose.
I wish I was able to attend the tournament. Hopefully we'll all meet again on the lacrosse field.

[PigPen]

The word of th day is...tolerance. When in Rome do as........
p.s.-it was a slash.

[LaxRef]

(snip)

I always find it amusing when someone's first post to a forum is so hostile.

[cbrockman9]

easy ref, i was trying to take the attention and blame away from one of your own...plus, my post seemed mild if not appropriate compared to the majority of the other posts.

[Kevin Boyle]

One of the things that is holding back the development of high school lacrosse in Wisconsin is the poor management of the UW Men's lacrosse team, the most visible lacrosse program in the state.

There are school administrators in Wisconsin whose only exposure to lacrosse is the UW Men's club. They have genuine concerns about bringing a sport to their school that carries this sort of culture along with it: the culture embodied by teams like UW Men's lacrosse, various college rugby clubs and ultimate frisbee clubs.

It's difficult to convince an AD that it IS possible to run a lacrosse (club or varsity) program like a varsity football program while the most visible program in the state is being run like an ultimate frisbee club. This would not be so difficult if these school administrator's only exposure to lacrosse had been a Michigan game.