Comparing "Virtual Varsity" to real varsity.

[comatose]

I played D3 ball and have played with a few guys from USLIA teams in post-collegiate club ball and wanted to put these 2 questions out there for discussion; what are some of the differences between DII/DIII ball and the USLIA?

I know I've heard about depth being an issue for the USLIA teams, even the ones that carry 45-50 players on them supposedly. This might be the biggest difference though, as many teams apparently practice quite often, pay their own dues and travel to face top competition.

Who are some players in the USLIA that could have been big producers/contributers at some DII/DIII programs? Now and in the past?

I haven't played with many guys from the USLIA ranks that have really impressed me thus far. But, they're great guys and I dig the dedication found within the USLIA. I'm also overtly interested in the growth of lacrosse, which is why I'm hyped there are teams out in the Midwest and on the West coast for guys to play in.

[John Paul]

Virtual varsity is all about organization. Not talent. I've seen some pretty pathetic varsity teams, but they are all fairly organized since their coaches are held accountable by their administration and their peers. There are kids at the IA level who could play anywhere, and I mean anywhere (witness Fiat and Mehrer who started at Utah and are now at Townson, Austin who came from Army and played at BYU, Combs who played Towson and is now at Lindenwood, Silverman who was invited to walk on at Maryland this year, etc.). Talent is not a question in the IA. It's there. Organization and level of coaching are the limiting factors.

The virtual varsity thing is probably misused at our level more often than not. For many IA teams, it's a target they are slowly working toward but haven't reached. For many it's not really a goal. I can only point to a handful of IA teams that have truly reached a level of organization and commitment that is indistinguishable from varsity lacrosse. Even some of our top teams, while extremely talented, are still run in large part by students with part-time coaches, and without the required commitment level (mandatory practices, lifting, film, outside obligations, recruiting, etc.) that is typical of a varsity team at any level. That's not a criticism. It's simply reality at our level.

The place where "virtual varsity" is most appropriately used is at our national level. As an organization of club teams, we have adopted NCAA rules of play to the letter and eligibility requirements that closely mirror the NCAA (and in some case are actually more restrictive). We have a system to ensure that games happen when scheduled (not a given at any other club level). We have a great post-season tournament to declare a national champion (now at two levels), and we have a national poll and post-season awards that are very similar to what the varsity world is doing.

[mholtz]

I would agree with Coach Paul here about organization.

With regard to talent... We recently finished our tryout process, and I asked our new assistant coach (who came from a D3 school) out of curiosity, how many guys would have made his D3 squad. He said without a doubt, 100%. Now... That's not Towson, or anything like that, It's just a comparison of middle of the road D3 to "upper middle" MDIA.

Just my $0.02.

[comatose]

J. Paul, doesn't Michigan head over to Ohio State soon to take on them and Butler? Should be an interesting matchup. Any possibility that Michigan will go full-varsity in a few years?

[A.J. Stevens]

I'm going to agree with Matt. I coached at 2 mid level Div III and 1 respectable Div I program. Most of the players on my team would have made both Div III rosters and 5 to 10 could have made the Div I team. With the growth of HS lacrosse more and more skilled players will end up on MDIA rosters.

Matt, Thanks for the spellcheck!

[John Paul]

Yes, we play them weekend after next. It's a great opportunity, but I wouldn't read too much into it. Last year we played Penn State, Bucknell and LeMoyne. We played all the scrimmages like any varsity team does - playing everyone, evaluating talent, etc. They were doing the same. I expect OSU and Butler to treat ours the same way. In fact, I anticipate we'll see mostly their younger guys since each of them play Maryland that day as well.

Three weeks later we play in a scrimmage day at Robert Morris, which may be a better place to judge where we fit in. During the regular season this year, we are scheduled to play Kenyon, Denison and Whittier - all on the road. Since those are real games, we'll all be playing our starters and playing to win.

No chance at varsity any time soon. Way too much money involved. I think it will happen eventually, but not until we've finished about $300 million in planned facilites work. By then the money will be freed up and the sport will have grown to the point that adding lacrosse will be a no-brainer. As a sport, we're not there yet.

[comatose]

I am assuming that you're playing Denison, Kenyon and Whittier in the fall as you only have Wittenberg on your spring season schedule as a scrimmage. Who do you play up at Robert Morris besides their team?

Back to the subject matter, what players that are now in the USLIA could have made top D3/2/1 teams?

I knew a few players who were decent on my D3 team that transfered to out to other schools with USLIA teams. Are there any signficant transfers going to any USLIA programs this year?

[John Paul]

We are playing those three in the spring. We'll also scrimmage Wittenberg before the regular season in the spring again. Our 2006 schedule is not up yet. It will be released next week. You were looking at last year's schedule.

Haven't heard who our other two games will be against at RMU yet.

I'm not going to speculate here on who can do what. It's certainly a longer list than many outside the IA might expect, and probably shorter than some in the IA assume. Remember, making rosters is not the same as starring or even starting. We have almost 200 teams with over 4,000 players. Just as a significant number of D3 players could make D1 rosters, and some of those guys could start, a significant number of our guys could do the same.

There are always transfers, although usually more coming from varsity and going to IA than the other way around. Time will tell if any of them are significant.

[CP18]

JP is right on target about Div I programs adding men's lacrosse, the funding just isn't there, and will not be there. The arms race in Football and Men's Basketball sucks most Athletic Departments dry in regards to Men's Athletics.

Adding a varsity sport where scholarship costs are high (high roster numbers), equipment costs, recruiting costs, coaching costs, and then not to mention travel costs (i.e. if you have to play out of your standard football conference and join another conference travel costs will be through the roof), and those are just naming a few major costs.

The reasons above alone are why the MDIA is such a great direction to combat the growth of the game, but no growth at the Varsity level.

[TrojanLaxman5]

Back to the subject matter, what players that are now in the USLIA could have made top D3/2/1 teams?

Though I'm sure there are several players who had offers from or opportunities to play for varsity programs, a very recent example is a new USC freshman defenseman, Luke Gilliland, who had a walk-on offer from Johns Hopkins. I'm sure this is not the only case of DI/II/III talent choosing to attend USLIA schools but is one that I know of first hand.

[comatose]

I don't want to sound rude, but everyone has a walk on offer at any school they can get into. If I applied to Syracuse and wasn't recruited, then I would have a walk on opportunity there.

BUT, I'm assuming that he at least talked with Petro to find out if he could make the team and Petro said, "sure, maybe if you came out in the fall as a walk on I'd keep you, but I can't offer you a scholarship because I'm out of those."

[Danny Hogan]

I don't want to sound rude, but everyone has a walk on offer at any school they can get into. If I applied to Syracuse and wasn't recruited, then I would have a walk on opportunity there."

i was thinking the same thing. but he may have meant he was recruited but not offered a scholarship.

[CP18]

Correct Danny. Many varsity coaches in male sports use the "Walk On" process just as the recruiting process. Very rarely does the kid the coach has never seen or met, come to the Walk On tryouts and make the Fall practice sqaud. Most "Walk On's" are invited, and then asked to practice during Fall drills, with the hope of making the roster for the Spring.

Every Fall I watch students walk into our Athletic offices asking about walk on tryouts for different sports and can tell right away if they have a chance basically or not, and that is by seeing if they know the head coach or assistant coach ahead of time.

[Zeuslax]

Besides off the field organization. The level of stick skills are fairly consistent from DI thru DIII. I think the same can be said of many in 1A and some in the B division. As with many other collegiate sports, the difference is natural abilities. Size, speed and quickness. The refined skills can be developed. The x factors can't be taught........

[comatose]

Have there been any Conference A versus Conference B games as of late to decide if some Conference B teams are pretty competitive even for being in a seemingly weaker division?

Division 3 teams have had a few bouts with division 2 teams in the past, and usually the top 20 D3 teams knock the D2 top 1-10 teams out.

Division 1 versus any teams in the D2/D3 doesn't happen anymore during the spring season. Sometimes it takes place in Fall ball, but as many know that's not indicative of how they'll do during the season, and if those programs are compatible.