Mascot Ruling

[lil lady lax fan]

A couple things in answer to your post:

The Cleveland Indians have that goofy looking caricature plastered everywhere and its offensive because it makes a race of people appear cartoonish and insignificant.

And the Fighting Irish logo is a credible example of an Irishman? Yes, I know I'm short, but the beard?? Even my high school had a caricature of a Spartan and you didn't hear the Greeks in the community complaining about it... they took it for what it was--a caricature, not a mockery of the Greek culture.

secondly, The term Redskins is a derogatory, slang term for Indians. You would never allow a team to be named the Nig---, or the Jews, or the Spicks, or wetbacks, or Honkies, or Po' White Trashes, or rednecks, or chinks, or whatever they call Mormons.

You make a very good point here. Namecalling of any kind is nothing but downright stupid. Sometimes it can happen unintentionally, though. Like the time I walked in and asked my hubby "How did your day go?" and he jokingly pointed out to me that I shouldn't ask an italian that question (day go= daigo, slang for italian). Needless to say I don't ask that anymore...(Jessexy: Ignore previous remark. I missread the part about the Mormons. My sincere apologies on that blunder).

Trojans are extinct. even Rebels are extinct. I was a little confused about the Cossacks namechange, because they arent represented anymore.

I'll grant you that the Trojan culture was destroyed, but extinct? Wrong word. That applies to species not cultures. Rebels being extinct--you, my dear, have never lived in Richmond, VA or gone to school in Central Virginia have you?? Been there, done both, they're still hanging around. Or if you go with the classic definition of the term, all you have to do is go to the mall and look at the teenagers to see that "Rebels" are alive and well.

As for the Cossacks, there's an interesting read on them in Wikipedia. I think those of Turkish descent would take offense from that term.

Lil lady lax,

i know your trying really hard to sound like yo uknow something, but the schools dont exactly give much credence to the culture in the one Native American lesson they give per year. In most of those stories and lessons, the native Americans Tribes are pictured as savages attacking innocent settlers and massacring soldiers trying to do their job on patrol. but it doesnt mention anything about Custer seeking out Sitting Bull and getting his own men killed.

and dont we all still think that Christopher Columbus discovered America when there were people already here?

I believe I can speak with some authority on the content of the Social Studies portion at my daughter's school. I take a very active interest in what is taught to my children and compare notes with parents who have children in other school districts. This past year my daughter's class covered California History--starting with an EXTENSIVE portion on the native inhabitants and what happened to them with the coming of the Missionaries. They covered the good, the bad and the ugly with regard to what happened to the Native Americans. In no way were the Indians portrayed as savages hell-bent on wiping out the 'cursed white man.' Custer was never portrayed as a very heroic figure in any of my history classes. I think YESIAMAGIRL hit the nail on the head with her discription. The guy really was an idiot.

I also checked the various school and alumni association websites about what they are doing to bring awareness to the general public about the Native American Tribes that their schools use as mascots. Although not perfect, they are offering more than 'one Native American lesson' on those tribes. Here is what CMU had to say about their decision in 1989:

On March 1, 1989, an advisory committee to the president recommended retaining the name under certain conditions. Those conditions included developing educational programs in conjunction with the local Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Council, sessions to familiarize CMU students and staff with traditional Native American culture, dropping the two official CMU Native American logos (a Native American profile and a spearpoint with a feather inside a block "C"), eliminating Native American drumbeats by pep bands and other measures.

The EMU Huron Restoration Alumni Association has proposed similar measures to honor the culture and history of the Huron tribes. Visit their website if you have any doubts to their sincerity. And Columbus is credited with discovering the "New World," complete with Natives. The same could be said for Marco Polo and his explorations of the Far East.

[jessexy]

responding to the post....

1. Fighting Irish is probably offensive to some, but the difference is that Notre Dame was created by a people for its people. they have the prerogative to create a mascot and image in the way they want to be viewed. Notre Dame created that image and can choose to alter it or be proud of it.

2. A caricature of a Spartan depicts Spartan culture. A caricature of a funny-looking Indian head does not depict EVERY SINGLE ONE of the over 600 registered Indian tribes in the USA. A Chippewa is different from a Sioux is different from a Seminole is different from a Ute is different from a Miami. Not every tribe dressed in extravagant war bonnets every day and wore buffalo skin moccasins. each one had a different culture and NONE of them were Redskins!

3. I didnt namecall Mormons. I havent ever heard a deragotory term for Mormons. If you noticed, i used examples of others mean, and disrepectful terms of many races & religions. I've heard most of them because people have called me some of them before. on a lacrosse field, no less.

4. If a people no longer exist, they are extinct. If you check your Thesaurus, destroyed and extinct are synonyms. My dear, I am from Texas. They still hang people and drag them from the backs of moving vehicles down here (Jasper, 1998). The Confederate States don't exist anymore. They are apart of the United States of America now, and have been for a few years (if you havent heard). doesnt mean that some out there would secede again right now, though, and we all know that the South wins the second time around.

5. Custer was a war hero before he made a big mistake and got too big for his own britches. and there are other examples......Andrew Jackson was elected President of the USA largely for his efforts in knocking down the uprising in Florida from Chief Osceola and his Seminoles.

6. The New World doesnt celebrate Columbus Day. America does.

[CATLAX MAN]

6. The New World doesnt celebrate Columbus Day. America does.

Isn't this now called "Indigenous Persons Day"?

[Brent Burns]

2. A caricature of a Spartan depicts Spartan culture. A caricature of a funny-looking Indian head does not depict EVERY SINGLE ONE of the over 600 registered Indian tribes in the USA. A Chippewa is different from a Sioux is different from a Seminole is different from a Ute is different from a Miami. Not every tribe dressed in extravagant war bonnets every day and wore buffalo skin moccasins. each one had a different culture and NONE of them were Redskins!

I am 1/16 Cherokee, but I consider myself a mutt (English, Irish, Scottish, German, and Cherokee).

5. Custer was a war hero before he made a big mistake and got too big for his own britches. and there are other examples......Andrew Jackson was elected President of the USA largely for his efforts in knocking down the uprising in Florida from Chief Osceola and his Seminoles.

When I was young, I discovered from a family bible when I was visiting my relatives in West Virginia that Andrew Jackson was my 8th cousin. My younger sister was not thrilled about that and called him an Indian-killer.

[lil lady lax fan]

Jessexy,

Didn't mean to sound so harsh in my response. I was still in work mode. Went through and edited it a bit. Sorry to hear about the name calling.

Forgot you were livin' in the glorious state of Texas. I was just saying that there are some in the Capital of the Confederacy who still refuse to give up the fight, ergo that form of the Rebels are not extinct.

Unfortunately our history (the Americas--North, South and Central) is full of examples of aggression and suppression of the native cultures. Let's hope that we can learn from our predecessor's mistakes and prevent any further such instances.

Peace to you too.
Cathi

[Dan Wishengrad]

The Confederate States don't exist anymore. They are apart of the United States of America now, and have been for a few years (if you havent heard). doesnt mean that some out there would secede again right now, though, and we all know that the South wins the second time around.

The South wins this time? Based on what -- the righteousness of their cause? Sorry but this is one of the most offensive things ever posted to this Message Board. We resolved the fight over states rights and the legality of humans to own other humans and keep them as slaves in 1865.

I think the author owes everyone of color, and especially all descendants of our wicked slavery past an apology!

[lil lady lax fan]

The Confederate States don't exist anymore. They are apart of the United States of America now, and have been for a few years (if you havent heard). doesnt mean that some out there would secede again right now, though, and we all know that the South wins the second time around.

The South wins this time? Based on what -- the righteousness of their cause? Sorry but this is one of the most offensive things ever posted to this Message Board. We resolved the fight over states rights and the legality of humans to own other humans and keep them as slaves in 1865.

I think the author owes everyone of color, and especially all descendants of our wicked slavery past an apology!

Dan, I think Jessexy was being very tongue-in-cheek about the South winning. He was referring to the "South will rise again" bumperstickers you see floating around some areas of the South. Being half-African American I highly doubt that he meant it in that way.

[YESIAMAGIRL]

5. Custer was a war hero before he made a big mistake and got too big for his own britches. and there are other examples......Andrew Jackson was elected President of the USA largely for his efforts in knocking down the uprising in Florida from Chief Osceola and his Seminoles.

Kinda off subject...Custer was a war hero?? What I remember from my Montana history class, which for those who didn't know is where Custer had his last stand (Little Bighorn Battle Field), is that Custer was sent out west because he somehow screwed up in the Civil War too. Like I said before, he was an idiot. Custer is the one who is responsible for all of the deaths that happened there...his own troops and also Sioux and Northern Cheyenne Native Americans.

[Tim Whitehead]

A brief summary of Custer's war record, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer

Civil War

George attended school in Monroe, Michigan (where he is honored by a statue in downtown). He graduated last in his class from West Point in 1861. He immediately joined his regiment at the First Battle of Bull Run. As a staff officer, his daring and energy, and in particular a spirited reconnaissance on the Chickahominy River, brought him to the notice of General George McClellan, who made him an aide-de-camp with the rank of Captain.

A few hours afterwards Custer attacked a Confederate States of America picket post and drove back the enemy. He continued to serve with McClellan until the general was relieved of his command, when Custer returned to duty with his regiment as a Lieutenant. In 1863, Custer was promoted to the rank of Brigadier-general of volunteers. He distinguished himself at the head of the Michigan cavalry brigade in the Battle of Gettysburg, and frequently did good service in the remaining operations of the campaign of 1863.

When the cavalry corps of the Army of the Potomac was reorganized under Sheridan in 1864, Custer retained his command, and took part in the various actions of the cavalry in the Wilderness and Shenandoah campaigns. In February 1864, Custer raided a Confederate camp in a battle known as the Battle of Rio Hill. At the end of September 1864, he was appointed to command a division, and on October 9 fought in the brilliant cavalry action called the Battle of Woodstock.

While retaining his regular-army rank of captain, he was rapidly given brevet commissions in the Volunteers as Major, Lieutenant-colonel and Colonel, and finally brevet Major-general for his services at Gettysburg, Yellow Tavern and Winchester. His part in the decisive Battle of Cedar Creek was most conspicuous.

He served with General Philip Sheridan in the last great cavalry raid, won the action of Waynesboro, and in the final campaign added to his laurels by his conduct at Dinwiddie and Five Forks. At the close of the war he received the brevets of brigadier and major-general in the regular army, and was promoted major-general of volunteers.

Indian Wars

In 1865 Custer was made lieutenant-colonel with the 7th U.S. Cavalry, and took part under General Winfield Scott Hancock in the expedition against the Cheyenne Indians, upon whom he inflicted a crushing defeat at Washita River on November 27, 1868. Even though the Cheyenne he massacred were not part of a hostile tribe (and were in fact on reservation land), this was still regarded as the first substantial US victory in the Indian Wars. In 1873 he was sent to the Dakota Territory to protect a railroad survey party against the Sioux. Then on August 4, 1873 near the Tongue River, Custer and the 7th Cavalry clashed for the first time with the Sioux. Only one man on each side was killed. In 1874 Custer led an expedition into the Black Hills and announced the discovery of gold on French Creek near present-day Custer, South Dakota. Custer's announcement triggered the Black Hills Gold Rush and gave rise to the lawless town of Deadwood, South Dakota.

Battle of the Little Bighorn

In 1876, an expedition that included Custer and his regiment was made against the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne. The Seventh Cavalry attacked a large village of Lakota and Northern Cheyenne on the banks of the Little Bighorn River. A messenger who was sent back by Custer reported that Custer said, upon seeing a stationary village on the other side of the river, "Hurrah, boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and then go home to our station."

Following the recovery of Custer's body from where he fell during the Battle of Little Big Horn the previous year, Custer was given a funeral with full military honors and was laid to rest at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York on October 10, 1877.

[lil lady lax fan]

Now that we've had a chance to discuss the pros and cons of said mascots, with some interesting points being made by both sides, how do you think this ruling will affect the schools on the list? How is this being received by the students and faculties at these institutions??

[Sonny]

Bush critices NCAA decision that affects FSU
Associated Press

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Gov. Jeb Bush criticized NCAA officials Tuesday for their decision to penalize Florida State University for using an American Indian nickname and symbols.

The governor said the Seminole Tribe of Florida supports the school's use of its name and NCAA officials had insulted the university and Seminole Indians by calling the nickname "hostile" and "abusive."

"I think they insult those people by telling them, 'No, no, you're not smart enough to understand this. You should be feeling really horrible about this.' It's ridiculous," Bush said.

Bush said the NCAA must have better things to do than sit around worrying about the nicknames adopted by its member institutions.

"How politically correct can we get?" Bush asked. "The folks that make these decisions need to get out more often."

Full article on ESPN.com:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/sto ... 9705204233

[lil lady lax fan]

Bush critices NCAA decision that affects FSU
Associated Press

CRITICES?!!!

What in the heck is that?!! I'm sure Dan Genck and all the other English majors are howling over that one!! Maybe one of you should apply to the Associated Press for the position of Assistant Editor. It looks like they could use one!

[Brent Burns]

I am not sure if the person from AP wrote the headline "critices" since ESPN.com picked it up from AP. I checked other newspaper sources that picked this story up from AP, and most of them used "criticize." It is my speculation that it may have come from a ESPN web writer. At any rate, we get the point that Fla. Gov. Jeb Bush disagreed with the NCAA ruling on the mascots and logos.

lil lady lax fan, good catch on the spelling.

[Jay Wisnieski]

Isn't this now called "Indigenous Persons Day"?

At USD, we always got the day off of school for "Native American Day". Call it what you will, I guess.

[Kevin OBrien]

but the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma have a major problem with the name based on the history of the US Army's Genocide of the Seminole's in Florida and the subsequent "Trail of Tears" where the Army moved (read walked) them to reservations in OK. The Cleveland Indians have that goofy looking caricature plastered everywhere and its offensive because it makes a race of people appear cartoonish and insignificant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was my people (there was a Cherokee somewhere in the bloodline) that were involved with the Trail of Tears, Chief Joseph, and all that. That leads to the question: At what percentage of ancestry are our views viable when qualifying something as racist?

you dont choose to be Native American or Indian! you can choose to be a cowboy or Texan or Dodger or Yankee.

Only delusional people think they can choose to be a Blue Jay, a Tiger, etc. Such people are usually locked up.

Trojans are extinct. even Rebels are extinct. I was a little confused about the Cossacks namechange, because they arent represented anymore.

If they're extinct, why is there still such a hubub about the schools having a rebel mascot?

i know your trying really hard to sound like yo uknow something, but the schools dont exactly give much credence to the culture in the one Native American lesson they give per year. In most of those stories and lessons, the native Americans Tribes are pictured as savages attacking innocent settlers and massacring soldiers trying to do their job on patrol. but it doesnt mention anything about Custer seeking out Sitting Bull and getting his own men killed.

I very much doubt that a college level class (if that's what you're talking about) depicts Native Americans as bloodthirsty savages. If that's the case, then why don't African American studies classes depict black people as an Al Jolsen stereotype?

and dont we all still think that Christopher Columbus discovered America when there were already people here?

after awhile, you've got to stop apologizing, forgive, and move forward. Of course, my family, as largely Irish Americans, still don't get mad about the bloody british stealing our land and demand reparations for suffering under Cromwell.