Religion in the Race, A Double Standard?

[MBlax327]

Personally, I believe the state has no business regulating what is essentially a religious commitment. The state should only recognize a civil commitment, which is now commonly referred to as marriage in our culture.

Kudos to you, sir!

[Zamboni_Driver]

Since this is turning into a small discussion on gay marriage. I have a question..

Anyone know the origins of marriage? I always assumed it stemmed from religion, and that each religion had their own version. So that brings up the question of should our government be allowed to give out marriage certificates? Shouldn't the religious organization determine who gets married by their standards?

I think the government should only be able to give out civil unions and provide legal protection for those unions. I know people will argue the word marriage has a different connotation nowadays, but if I were a church head, I'd be campaigning to reclaim and control the marriage brand.

I'm kinda surprised the heterosexual atheists haven't sued because under separation of church and state, they shouldn't have the title "marriage" in a government document.

{again all based on the assumption marriage is a religious based entity}

[Adam Gamradt]

I heard this woman on NPR, and her insight on the subject was fascinating.

http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/books/marriage/

I believe that marriage was not a religious concept initially. Although I may be mistaken. The institution of marriage was initially created to secure and consolodate both property and power.

[Zamboni_Driver]

I heard this woman on NPR, and her insight on the subject was fascinating.

http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/books/marriage/

I believe that marriage was not a religious concept initially. Although I may be mistaken. The institution of marriage was initially created to secure and consolodate both property and power.

Wow. If it is true, I was way off...for many, many years.

[JW]

First of all let me state my allegiences and a little background.

I am a Christian, have been since i was a teenager.
I have been involved in ministry for the last eight years.
I am currently enrolled at Dallas Theological Seminary (Master of Arts in Cross Cultural Ministry) - A degree to set me up to do missions
So obviously my opinions will be driven by my faith in my God, the same God of Judaism and Islam (but leave out Christ).

I believe that marriage was created when Eve was created and given Adam.

Because religion is still a part of the majority of the world's and American's views it should not be suprising to see Politicians using religion as part of their campaigns.

My problem with Obama is not his religion, or lack there of, it is a concept that he has stated in a speech during the primaries. It is that he will not allow his faith to influence his politics. This is where i have to pull out the yellow flag and call a personal foul. People with faith understand that God is everywhere an involved with everything. Separation of Church and state while a good idea, is unrealistic. Unfortunately leaders with faith have taken this to extremes.

- the crusades
- Hitler
- Bush's comment about going to war being God's instruction.

In study of the text it appears that wars of the Lord only occurred in the Old Testament in association with the chosen people of Israel - whether they were the ones doing the attacking (in the book of Joshua when they took Canaan) or being attacked (in the books of 2 Kings, 2 Chronicles and the prophets).

Christ taught us to turn the other cheek in the book of Matthew. That to hate someone in your heart is to commit murder. This is why I hold Bush's comments to be questionable. I do not believe that God uses warfare as part of His will. Christ uses peace, love, and patience.

While I don't agree with homosexual relationships, that does not mean that I love these people less. In the eyes of my Lord, i have my faults that are no different than that of people in homosexual relationships, and as Paul says in Romans, we all have our faults (paraphrased).

To comment on a comment made earlier about McCain's importance placed on the family. It is in the family that everything begins. Whether this is a Heterosexual or Homosexual family head, everything starts with the family. How we as individuals turn out begins with the familys. Yes we have our own choices to make, but how we are raised plays an important part in how we turn out. I believe it is great that McCain puts so much emphasis on the family. God puts the same emphasis on the family. OT and NT.

I voted twice for Bush, it is what it is, can't change it. I am perplexed at this time who i will vote for. Currently leaning toward McCain because of his stance on the family, marriage, and abortion. That said, i am not ruling out either democratic candidate based on their focus on social services for the poor. While i don't hate the idea of welfare, i think there needs to be some adjustments made.

Thanks guys for the discussion.

[BucLax13]

Why does the government give tax breaks to married couples?

Why don't single people get tax breaks?

[TheBearcatHimself]

Because religion is still a part of the majority of the world's and American's views it should not be suprising to see Politicians using religion as part of their campaigns.

My problem with Obama is not his religion, or lack there of, it is a concept that he has stated in a speech during the primaries. It is that he will not allow his faith to influence his politics. This is where i have to pull out the yellow flag and call a personal foul. People with faith understand that God is everywhere an involved with everything. Separation of Church and state while a good idea, is unrealistic.

Mmmmmm...the sweet smell of hegemony.

People with faith should also understand that the heathens that choose to not be involved with that religion that is everywhere shouldn't be forced to deal with that single religion that the hegemonic group claims is everywhere.

Christ taught us to turn the other cheek in the book of Matthew. That to hate someone in your heart is to commit murder. This is why I hold Bush's comments to be questionable. I do not believe that God uses warfare as part of His will. Christ uses peace, love, and patience.

Saint Augustine would like to talk to you privately in the back room, he greatly disagrees with your position. Just War doctrine has been part of Christian teaching since the 4th century. Patience was thrown out the window many years ago.

[laxfan25]

Why does the government give tax breaks to married couples?

Why don't single people get tax breaks?

Hmmmm, could it do with the fact that a large percentage of the voting population is married and own homes? Falling into both categories myself, I'm not unhappy with the status quo - but that doesn't mean it's fair to those that are single and/or rent to own.

[laxfan25]

Separation of Church and state while a good idea, is unrealistic.

Yeah, such a good idea that they wrote it into the Constitution. What is unrealistic about upholding that tenet? We do have the court system (including the Supreme Court) to uphold the Constitution, and that is one of the major reasons I am hoping for a turn away from the rightward turn on the bench. Bush got to put two on there, and since John McCain promised the other day to add justices in the mold of Scalia and Alito, I'd rather not go that way.

I think it will be interesting to see if any light is turned on McCain's "family values" and how he dumped his first wife, who was injured in a car accident, to marry the wealthy beer heiress.

[StrykerFSU]

I think it will be interesting to see if any light is turned on McCain's "family values" and how he dumped his first wife, who was injured in a car accident, to marry the wealthy beer heiress.

I see what you did there. Again remember that Sen. McCain is attractive to moderate Republicans and independents for the very reason that he doesn't browbeat about "family values"...whatever that means.

As to his specific case, John McCain got married just before shipping off to Vietnam. As you might have heard, he ran into some bad luck over there and while Jane Fonda was sitting on AA guns in Hanoi John McCain was being beaten and starved at the Hanoi Hilton. While he was serving, his wife was indeed involved in a car accident wherein she was thrown through the windshield and left seriously injured. McCain did not learn of the accident until his arrival back home, at his wife's request.

This is where I don't make a judgment but it seems fully plausible that both of these individuals went through seriously life altering experiences. Further, they went through these experiences without the support of one another and therefore may very well have grown apart and not unexpectedly would be very different people than the two kids that walked down the aisle before the war.

So anyway, I'm not going to judge him or his first wife for choosing to get a divorce. Apparently the two are still friendly and McCain provided insurance and paid medical bills for his first wife even after their marriage was ended.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Separation of Church and state while a good idea, is unrealistic.

While I agree with most of what you wrote and respect and applaud you for your religious faith, JW, I can't agree with your quote above. Amendment I of the U.S. Constitution is crystal clear:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

You are free to practice your religion, while others are free to practice theirs and still others are free to practice NO religion whatsoever, if that is what they choose. You are free to vote for a candidate who shares your religious faith, and others are free to vote with no weight given whatsoever to a candidate's religion or demonstration of faith. This is not unrealistic, it is absolutely codified in our most cherished American document and guiding precept, in fact.

In this year's Presidential campaign we will be choosing between two good, decent and competent men who are both fine public servants. IMHO it is a shame that there are some out there who will seek to destroy the reputation of both Senators McCain and Obama with negative attacks that scream that somehow JM or BO are incompetent and unequipped to lead us. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I wish we could simply let the two of them debate the issues which separate them and then let the voters decide who should be elected. Either man will offer a big improvement over the current occupant of the White House, and either will help to restore both our domestic situation and our standing in the world. Is it necessary that both men have to be tarred, feathered and tarnished beyond all reason in the process? How did we come to this sorry state? Both Senators McCain and Obama clearly want and hope to keep to the high road, as they have done for most of their political careers. Good for them I say, and hope the "527" zealots on both sides are restricted from the kind of "Swift boating" which contributes nothing positive and seeks only to destroy.

[KnoxVegas]

As to his specific case, John McCain got married just before shipping off to Vietnam. As you might have heard, he ran into some bad luck over there and while Jane Fonda was sitting on AA guns in Hanoi John McCain was being beaten and starved at the Hanoi Hilton. While he was serving, his wife was indeed involved in a car accident wherein she was thrown through the windshield and left seriously injured. McCain did not learn of the accident until his arrival back home, at his wife's request.

She was left seriously injured, not dead or in a vegetative state, right? So he cut and ran from his marriage. You know, when faced with a tough struggle in his marriage, he bailed. That is what you're saying isn't it?

When McCain returned to the United States in 1973 after more than five years as a prisoner of war, he found his wife was a different person. The accident "left her 4 inches shorter and on crutches, and she had gained a good deal of weight."

http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcaindiv.htm

After this quote, I can see why he divorced her. Some much for "until death do you part."

[JW]

First of all thank you guys for your comments. Discussion is a great way to learn and teach.

What I meant by my comment of the separation of church and state being an unrealistic concept was not in the structure of the state, but within the individuals who are in power in the state. I dont believe that an individual cannot separate themselves from their faith. I understand that the reason for the separation of church and state is that so the government does not become a theocracy.

Because faith is intertwined into every individual, one can not separate the decisions that they make from that faith.

I am aware of Augustine's discussion of a just war, but I believe that just war applied to pre-monarchy Israel. When it comes to doctrine, my beliefs come from scripture. Christ taught to love thy neighbor and to pray for your enemies (Matthew). Jews in the Old Testament were also taught that they should show hospitality to foreigners (as spoken in the law, and as exemplified by Boaz to Ruth in the book of Ruth.

[KnoxVegas]

So obviously my opinions will be driven by my faith in my God, the same God of Judaism and Islam (but leave out Christ).

This is the most enlightened statement I have ever read on these boards.

[StrykerFSU]

Yeah, I saw that quotation and recognized it as being possibly taken out of context and juxtaposed with the statement that she was a different person I thought that perhaps the author of that passage might have been trying to create a little controversy where there wasn't any. The quotation is not even attributed to anyone or sourced. Just my opinion.

But again, having never been a POW or in a serious car accident I am not going to judge. I am certainly willing to concede that their respective experiences might strain a marriage to its breaking point. As they continue to be friendly (information taken from that same website you cite), I'll let Carol McCain's disposition be the ultimate statement on the termination of their marriage.

But I'm not going to try to convince anyone about the situation surrounding a marriage involving people I've never met. I just thought the circumstances surrounding the divorce were a little more complex than McCain "dumping" his wife.