Hidden Ball Trick - Blatant Cheating

[Tim Whitehead]

I think people are really making way too big a deal out of this. Really, if the refs would have seen this and caught it, what is it, a withholding the ball call and a change of possession? Or maybe an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty?

[laxfan25]

I think people are really making way too big a deal out of this. Really, if the refs would have seen this and caught it, what is it, a withholding the ball call and a change of possession? Or maybe an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty?

I would agree that if it was caught at the time it would be no big deal. Why is it a big deal now? Because there is video of it! Nothing is newsworthy now unless you've got clips and/or pix to run on YouTube. Do you think the Jeremiah Wright story would be as big without video? Abu Gharib? Rodney King? The Philadelphia police? If you don't have video evidence it is very easy to claim that it never happened.

[creasemonkey]

Being an alum from Arapahoes rival i could honestly care less that they did this cause they lost...
They cheated or whatever people are calling it and lost... what a shame.

[LaxRef]

Being an alum from Arapahoes rival i could honestly care less that they did this cause they lost...
They cheated or whatever people are calling it and lost... what a shame.

That is the only good thing about this story: they cheated and lost anyway. The word "shame" is very apt here.

[iDinosaur!]

People are getting pretty upset over this play (especially on LaxPower). The Coach was asked to step down yesterday to try and remove the sanctions that CHASA put on Arapahoe. But my question is, what is the difference between that play, and this one (which occurs much more frequently)




(Full size picture Here )


Should SFU take the same heat Arapahoe did?

[Chris Larson]

He's doing a crappy job of thumbing it. How about the hold by the defender.

[iDinosaur!]

He's doing a crappy job of thumbing it. How about the hold by the defender.

You're right. I forgot that cheating is actually only wrong when you're really good at it.

[Zamboni_Driver]

People are getting pretty upset over this play (especially on LaxPower). The Coach was asked to step down yesterday to try and remove the sanctions that CHASA put on Arapahoe. But my question is, what is the difference between that play, and this one (which occurs much more frequently)




(Full size picture Here )


Should SFU take the same heat Arapahoe did?

First, let me state I do not think the coach or school should be sanctioned. But if I was Denver (which I wear I think we were told he was going), I think I'd want the player to apologize (especially if he is on scholarship).

but to play devils advocate -- The difference being in thumbing the ball involves only 1 player and is an event by itself. The play in question involved 2 players and a deceptive tactic to confuse the other team and refs, which suggests a discussion was held in advance on how to pull off the play (simpler put - you wouldn't even attempt the hand-ball if the hidden ball trick had not preceded it). Pre-meditation appears to be possible and is a logical assumption which is why people are so upset.

[iDinosaur!]

People are getting pretty upset over this play (especially on LaxPower). The Coach was asked to step down yesterday to try and remove the sanctions that CHASA put on Arapahoe. But my question is, what is the difference between that play, and this one (which occurs much more frequently)




(Full size picture Here )


Should SFU take the same heat Arapahoe did?

First, let me state I do not think the coach or school should be sanctioned. But if I was Denver (which I wear I think we were told he was going), I think I'd want the player to apologize (especially if he is on scholarship).

but to play devils advocate -- The difference being in thumbing the ball involves only 1 player and is an event by itself. The play in question involved 2 players and a deceptive tactic to confuse the other team and refs, which suggests a discussion was held in advance on how to pull off the play (simpler put - you wouldn't even attempt the hand-ball if the hidden ball trick had not preceded it). Pre-meditation appears to be possible and is a logical assumption which is why people are so upset.

Great points.

Devil's advocate the other way (just to be clear I have nothing against SFU. I just happened to stumble on this picture) Thumbing is premeditated as well. It is not a natural motion to throw your thumb in the pocket while cradling and hold the ball against the pocket. It takes practice, just like the hidden ball trick did.

So then the only issue becomes that only 1 player thumbed it, while 2 people were in on the hidden ball trick?

Not sure if I am right on this or not (LaxRef can correct me I'm sure), but wouldn't both situations have the same call if caught during a game?

[LaxRef]

So then the only issue becomes that only 1 player thumbed it, while 2 people were in on the hidden ball trick?

Not sure if I am right on this or not (LaxRef can correct me I'm sure), but wouldn't both situations have the same call if caught during a game?

I would have given that particular version of the hidden ball trick a USC. It was a deliberate, premeditated attempt to score a goal by violating the illegal touching and withholding rules. One thing I think some people missed is how well-rehearsed this play was: the offender go to the goal-line extended, then ran in and used his body to screen the official from the illegal activity. This makes me think it was coached and practiced. I'd like to think most teams use their man-up practice time better than this.

Anyway, the outrage is because of how far they went. We know people thumb the ball, and we catch them on it sometimes and miss it sometimes. At the heart of the matter, I don't think someone who deliberately thumbs the ball or deliberately uses and illegal stick has any more honor than these kids, but there isn't the outrage because there's the feeling that both sides do it and get away with it sometimes and get caught sometimes.

And, technically, the kid with the ball in his hand is guilty of "illegal touching," while thumbing the ball is "withholding the ball from play." But they're both change-of-possession technicials.

[Buc_em_up]

Thats why i like playing defense, most of the time you dont have the ball and even if you do you'd look pretty ridiculous trying to thumb the ball with a d-pole!

[DRich17]

this kind of stuff goes on a lot more than is ever caught. Lacrosse has no "official review" or anyway of looking at a replay, and the truth is that if the ref doesn't catch it, the player did a 'good' job of cheating. Refs miss calls sometimes, it goes both ways

[DRich17]

but that is hilarious that someone got such a great picture of that thumbing, lol

[Beta]

How about the hold by the defender.

You're joking right?

[Chris Larson]

Looks like contact with the stick between the hands in an effort to steer the offensive palyer. By the rules it's a hold.

Good luck ever seeing it called though