The PNCLL at the 2008 MCLA National Championships in Dallas

[timekeeper]

Just curious. . .and maybe somebody who is at Nationals can explain the circumstances. . .

But why did Calvin Davis, the leading scorer in the PNCLL, score a goal with 10 seconds remaining in a game where his team was up 20-5? Was WOU attacking the cage at the end with their starters still in? I certainly hope not. I understand WOU has small numbers, but I was just curious if this was an issue in Texas. I just don't get it. . .

Was the Harding side upset about this, or was it just in the flow of the last few seconds of the game?

Jason,

I'll let the WOU guys give you their official version but, from every game of theirs I saw this year, WOU was pressing to score goals no matter how big a lead and no matter how deep into the game they were. Just a neutral observation. I'll pass on editorializing about this.

Brian

[WOULAX21]

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject:
Just curious. . .and maybe somebody who is at Nationals can explain the circumstances. . .

But why did Calvin Davis, the leading scorer in the PNCLL, score a goal with 10 seconds remaining in a game where his team was up 20-5? Was WOU attacking the cage at the end with their starters still in? I certainly hope not. I understand WOU has small numbers, but I was just curious if this was an issue in Texas. I just don't get it. . .

Was the Harding side upset about this, or was it just in the flow of the last few seconds of the game?

Jason,

I can understand your standpoint. BUT, find a way for me to pull a starting attack-man with a 16 man roster (4 middies and 2 extra poles for subs). Please, I don't want this to sound rude in any way at all but in a National Tournament, players positions aren't going to change just because of a lead.

Now, as for him scoring... not the best showing of class and sportsmanship at face value and 21-5 isn't more of a statement than 20-5. Good point on that one.

Lastly, I honestly don't really recall the situation exactly or even if the goal was just a part of the flow of the movement or what, but is having a scoring opportunity and not taking it because you are winning any less of a slap to the other team than continuing to play hard? I feel that both teams are out on the field in every game (especially at this tourney) to bust their gut the entire 60min. Like i said, I can see your point and if i could remember the exact situation, my points here might be totally invalid. I am just offering my standpoint in general to the game and our roster as you have seen.

Now, todays game was both exciting and obviously very disappointing in the end. Our boys played as hard as they could against a very deep Westminster roster. Westminster has both talent and depth on equal levels that have helped them maintain their dominance in the #1 position this season. They play with smarts and were able to find our weaknesses and exploit them. We put it all out there today and unfortunately, struggled during the last half. My hat is off them and wish them luck throughout the rest of the tourney.

We do have another game tomorrow although I'm not sure what time or who we play. Expect us to play hard and finish strong after todays tough loss. Thank you again for all of you who were cheering for us back in the NW.

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

Mark,

You guys did one helluva job hanging with Westminster today. . .I think you represented the PNCLL's D2 quite well with your efforts over the past two days. . .

I had just read the article about your win over Harding, and there were some comments in that article that led me to wonder as to whether WOU's goal scoring late in the game rubbed anyone wrong or led to any ill will in Texas. I was hoping your level of sportsmanship matched your level of play, that's all. . .

I was hoping to hear that it was a scoring situation that was unavoidable. . .not a blatant attempt to pad stats or "send a message" to a team that was obviously overmatched.

I'm continually impressed by the Wolves program and what you guys have accomplished on the field in such a short time. I hope your experiences in Texas allow your program to continue to move forward and hopefully next year you'll be able to take the next step the way Montana did.

Good luck in your consolation game. Make sure the seniors get to have a blast in their last collegiate game. I want Butterwegge playing with a long-pole. . .50 push-ups if he commits a slash penalty. . .

[woulaxfan]

Mark,

I have to agree with Dr. Stockton. You guys did a great job today...from what I could tell by checking the inconsistent game updates from my phone :/

I have followed you guys and video taped your games since the team's formation and its been a great ride. I wish I had as much free time this year as I did in the years past. I would have loved to go to Dallas. Apparently I should be around for my own graduation. Meh. But the fact that you guys hung with the #1 team in the nation is a great testament to what you, Butterwegge and others created 4 years ago.

Anyways before this starts to sound too much like eulogy great job in Dallas and I hope us at Pacific can drag a team to see you guys next year.

By the way...no penalties against Harding? Niiiiice

[woulaxfan]

by the way....what time is the WOU consolation game? I can't seem to find it.

[Matt_Gardiner]

My feelings is that it is impossible to run the score up against a team in the National Tournament. All the teams are high caliber teams and if they do not want to lose 21-5 they need to play better. This is not a situation where a team can pick on another team because I believe all the teams are loosely on the same level.

As long as you are not hooting and hollering and acting a fool in general, you can beat a team 35-2 and I would not think twice about wether or not that was right or fair or classy. The "Princeton Rule" should not apply in MCLA tournament games.

[Tim Whitehead]

Congrats to both SFU and WOU on good showings at the tournament and on great seasons in general. I'm really looking forward to seeing what SFU can do next year. With no seniors on the team this year, and the freshmen I'm assuming Brent and Jeff are bringing in next year, I think this is a team that can definitely compete for the title next year. Great season, guys, and build on this for next year.

[Hi-Line Lax]

Just a couple of thoughts on the PNCLL's showing here in Texas...

SFU is REALLY GOOD! Duh for me, news to lots of people here. They dominated Florida State in the first round and their game with BYU came down to a few unlucky bounces. They had a tough time with the BYU clear, but overall played a fantastic game. Towner, Foss, and Thomas will be serious threats on the field next season. I was also really impressed with how far their long poles have come... Manning has always impressed me, but the guys who stood out to me this week were LSM Clare (esp against FSU), and poles Brascia (nice work on Hier), Miyashita (lots of X-factor plays) and Castagner laying the body out there... great job defense. They are a young team on a mission and don't be surprised at all if they take the MCLA title next season. Congrats on a fantastic year SFU!

I left the WOU/Harding game early in the first when it was obvious that the game would be boring. Harding was, IMO, the worst team in Dallas. They may have been hampered by injury or something I'm unaware of, but they didn't look good at all. WOU started slow, but as soon as they started clicking I knew Harding didn't have a chance. I made it back for the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter and wasn't surprised at the score. What did surprise me are some of the actions that people have mentioned before. First off, it definitely is possible to run up the score on teams at Nationals, not everybody here is on the same level. Next I guess would be a general criticism of WOU... celebrating every goal with cheesy little antics is not only against the rules, but incredibly unclassy. I know their bench was very short, but there is no reason to be shooting at the end of that game with Harding. In the last 6 minutes that I watched I saw Calvin Davis shoot 4 times behind the back... none of which went in and none of which drew any noticeable criticism from his coaches. If he were on my team, he would be on the bench... period. But enough of that... because WOU did impress me yesterday with their game against Westminster. WOU hung in there really tough until their bench simply couldn't match the numbers from Westminster. You Wolves should be proud of your effort, I know the sidelines of that game were impressed with your heart and grit. Congrats on a great season and keep your heads up.

Overall, it's been a bit of a strange week to be here watching without my guys (also weird with no Ducks here) but I've been happy to represent the conference. We got some first round W's, which is always good, and both WOU and SFU went down to some really fantastic teams... nothing to be ashamed of. Their week may be over because of the weather, but their seasons ended on a high note (IMO) and they should be proud.

[byualum]

Congrats to both SFU and WOU on good showings at the tournament and on great seasons in general. I'm really looking forward to seeing what SFU can do next year. With no seniors on the team this year, and the freshmen I'm assuming Brent and Jeff are bringing in next year, I think this is a team that can definitely compete for the title next year. Great season, guys, and build on this for next year.

If you check BYU asst. coach Pete Stevenson's blog over on rmlax.com you'll see that he agrees. He's already annointed them the team to beat next year. Having never seen them play in person, his comparison to Air Force football is an interesting one.

[Tyler Baumann]

I don't know why people are surprised by WOU lack of class. They have always been like that from day one. Whether it is yelling "all day baby, all day baby" while isoing, than dropping the ball when attempting to go left . To getting in people's face when they go up 1-0 in the first 2 min of the 1st quarter, bringing their pirate flag on the road and hanging it from our video tower even though we were nice enough to let them even use it in the first place, or making you tube highlight videos from our matchups of last year even though we beat them twice last year, and the videos even say f#*! SOU on them......classy. I know that this was an issue last year with other teams as well. Regardless, Harding sounds like they shouldn't have even been there and if they couldn't keep up well that's too bad for Harding not WOU. What goes around comes around and WOU got smacked by Westminter who ran up the score themselves a bit yesterday, it's nationals and you need to play with a chip on your shoulder to stay competitive.

[Kyle Berggren]

I am not a Harding fan, I've always thought they were ranked a bit too high, but in their defense, they lost a 1st team Midfielder for this game... Losing the key cog to your offense, the person that clears the ball with legs, wins the ground, the emotional leader, & takes faces is a bit rough on any team. They won their AQ, they deserved the trip. This wasn't their day, but they're a capable team, just a little too depleted at this point.

SFU, good job! I know you're not happy about losing a close one, but I'm guessing with your massive losses due to graduation (& your terrible recruiting/feeding program), you'll only improve for next season... I'm sure you'll get another shot at it, & I'm guessing teams will have their hands full.

As far as the WOU class, every team has multiple players with their own personalities. It's sad that the actions taken by 1 or 2 people on & off the field will tarnish or color folk's view of the team, but that's the way it is. If there was enough pressure from the team, I'm sure antics would have stopped. That wouldn't have happened on my team, I would have pulled Petit, Dills, or Karr if that was their decision. 4 behind the back shots is ridiculous & it's adding insult to injury late in the game. I am NOT for holding the ball & passing it around, but I think with 10 seconds left, we'd stand in the corner & run it out. At that point, it's time to take players out of positions that made them successful all season & give some kids a shot to improve & play other positions. There are 9 people on the team with under 10 points on the season, 6 of them have zero. Would have been nice to mix them in at attack & midfield to get them chances by driving & dumping throughout the 4th.

Color this however you will, a team leader, the PNCLL D2's leading scorer, probably should have pulled back the reigns a bit & gotten some other people involved. After all he did have 33 assists on the season...

[TheBearcatHimself]

Well, since we're all on here posting our opinions about WOU's win over Harding...I'm not one to leave my voice unheard.

I think it was fine. Unless we have video showing the whole team shouting to rub it in and Davis trying to iso his man and get that one last goal, I think you have to realize it could have happened a million ways, and WOU doesn't have attack subs now that Hayden is gone.

However, it would be prudent to point out that teams who get stomped on remember getting stomped on. And when teams like WOU graduate 6 or 7 important contributors like they are this year, they themselves might be prepared for some rudeness in coming seasons.

Karma just keeps rolling in lax...if people feel wronged by WOU, just know that WOU will get theirs eventually.

And side note, don't know how many of you were checking the D2 poll forum as the season went along but WOU got no love and was consistently hated on by the St. Thomas, Grand Valley, St. John's triumvirate of forum bashers. I know that the talk they were saying in the forums could not have helped WOU's votes received, which in turn gave them the 8 seed that they clearly were better than. A roster of 16 gave the best team in the land all they could handle for two quarters and I'm proud that they represented our league well.

[WOU_LAX14]

First off i just want to say being down here in Dallas, TX has been an experience of a lifetime. There are so many great teams down here that the competition in insane and I'm just glad that i got to see it first hand. Good luck to all the teams advancing and I wish them the best of luck.

Now regarding the ever popular discussion about WOU's class i have some comments of my own. Since the first day I came out for the team the leaders have preached nothing but class. We realize that we represent our school and the PNCLL and wouldn't do anything to ruin the current reputation of either.

Regarding celebrating, yelling from the sideline, or any other thing that has been questioned about us we mean nothing by it. Every team, player, and program has their own formula for success. Ours is confidence and heart. When we celebrate after a goal we do it with in the rules. If we didn't wouldn't we get penalized by the refs. We have also never been the type of team to get frustrated when we lose or when someone else does there own celebration. I can remember this year when we were ahead by 15+ goals and the team we were playing scored there first goal; an amazing play by the way. The person who celebrated the goal acted like they had won the championship. There were jumping around celebrating with his team and the next face off was delayed a little bit. We didn't complain about it during the game, after the game, or even at all. We saw it as a part of the game and actually encouraged it during the game applauding there enthusiasm and emotion. We have been that team getting blown out in the past, been that team blowing someone out, and as you all know were that team in the national tournament against Westminster during the second half. We never once complained about how they celebrated, yelled from the sideline, or anything they did that might be looked down by anyone. We realize that when it comes to any competitive sport, especially one at the level we are all at, that its a part of the game. If you don't have that emotion and spirit you will not be able to make it. Just because ours may be a little different that others may approve of, it shouldn't make us that guy. Everyone trash talks, celebrates, or does something that may seem rude to the other team during there games; we just need to realize that emotions run high during the games. Off the field we are the nicest of guys. When Central took our goal for an undefeated season early on we didn't complain, we actually hung around with them after the game while they barbecued hot dogs and burgers for us.

Calvin Davis is that type of player runs on nothing but heart, emotion, and a skill i wish i could acquire sometime in my future years playing this sport. When he took the behind the back shots they were with in the game. Westminster had and incredible goal where the ball was fed to crease and he scored behind the back when the game was already over. We didn't complain, we didn't question there class. We respected there heart and skill . We understood that this is part of the lacrosse especially in how big of game it was to both teams. We realized on that day they were the better team and from that forth on vowed to be the powerhouse they are now and have been in there short career of their program.

I think we all need not be concerned with the antics of the game if they aren't causing harm, or breaking the rules in some way. Everyone playing at this level knows that the competition is so high that with wins or losses things will happen that people disprove of....

[WOULAX21]

Having been busy all day with team stuff i haven't been able to be on here to follow up with my last reply. I guess the only thing that i could say further is before you all start hating on celebrating goals, take a look at every single goal that your team has scored or every solid hit your team has made, or every comment you've ever made to a ref. Now when thinking about those things, has anyone doing any of those ever received a penalty for conduct? In general, i think the unanimous answer is yes. Now, i am in no way making any bit of an excuse for any of my players that do celebrate or make rude comments towards other players, coaches, refs, or fans. But i can say that i have never received a conduct penalty myself in my entire career (then again, i guess you have to be good to be cocky, so probably an invalid point lol). Pay attention to the good as well as the bad i guess is all i am asking for.

Westminster had and incredible goal where the ball was fed to crease and he scored behind the back when the game was already over. We didn't complain, we didn't question there class. We respected there heart and skill .

About 4 or 5 of our guys actually gave props to this player during the final handshake as well....

Will, u are 100% right on the Karma thing. I think that every team has room to improve and to get theirs in the future. I don't agree with the celebrating at all personally, but unfortunately, it is a part of the game just like dirty checks, tripping & slashes. We just gotta get over these things and enjoy the game at the highest competition level possible.

All in all, some will see that last goal as complete BS and others will see it as part of the National Tourney. It happened and we did lose by a lot in our next game. WOU is here to compete and win games just like every other team. I hope this all wasn't a ramble and made some sense

[Mark Brown]

Congrats to WOU and SFU for representing the PNCLL at Nationals! You both had outstanding seasons and should be proud.
No comments posted in this thread reflect the current SOU teams thoughts about WOU Lacrosse. We have no room to talk about class when we have had the amount of un-sportsman-like penalities that we have had over the last few seasons (which I think have cost me about 10 years off of my life span). As Kyle said, 1 or 2 people on a team can lead to a generalized view of that team.
WOU won the league b/c they were obviously the most dedicated team both on and off the field this year.
Thanks to all of the teams in the PNCLL for making this League what it is! Already looking forward to next year!