Hidden Ball Trick - Blatant Cheating

[Chris Larson]

Nothing. Once the whistle blows to end the game, a goal cannot come off the board.

[Baller1]

Even if both his feet were outside the goal when the ball crossed the plane of the goal his momentum can't carry him into the crease. That's the basis of the diving rule, that they banned from lacrosse.

[PigPen]

cheating yes-but to try that in that type of a game takes a bit of cojones too. How could anyone miss that? Kind of like running down during a football match and stealing the ball while in play-people would and should be like "what the hell?"-so in that regard I am little shocked at the audacity (or courage to do this). But sanctions!? how many FOGOs cheat on every draw-same thing in my book. Cheating is cheating anyway you look at it-illegal stick, hidden ball, grabbing the head on a faceoff.

If the coach told them to do that-they yes, that coach should be punished. Not the team or school.

If we start penalizing teams for cheating for stuff like that, there would be no high school athletics (soccer-pulling shirts, football-crisco on the jerseys, etc).

Playing Devil's advocate-how did that defenseman not know he had the ball in his hand. Head on a swivel man, head on a swivel.

[Chris Larson]

Even if both his feet were outside the goal when the ball crossed the plane of the goal his momentum can't carry him into the crease. That's the basis of the diving rule, that they banned from lacrosse.

The NCAA rule (I don't have the NFHS book online)
m. If an attacking player deliberately leaves his feet by jumping or diving
and his momentum carries him into the crease area, regardless of
whether he lands in the crease before or after the ball enters the goal.

I have not watched the video to be able to judge if the shooter jumped or dove.

[laxfan25]

In defense of the offficials, the kid driving "without" the ball didn't have it in his stick, even the defender pulls off to slide to the crease. As an official you're going to now focus on the players in front of the crease - very easy to not see the kid take the ball from his cuff and put it in his stick.

Watching the play several times from the angle given, I can't tell if he's on the creaseline before the ball is in. Definitely after, but I can't make that call from the tape.

As for the play - it is hard to imagine that the kids came up with that one on their own (but maybe...), it certainly looks practiced, and if the coach was aware of the plan he definitely deserves some kind of suspension. As I've said from the beginning of my career - if I can't beat you fair and square, why are we even playing the game??? Cheating in sports is for losers, whether they're ahead on the scoreboard or not.

If it was an overtime goal and this surfaced after the fact, I imagine it would rest in the hands of the state high school sports association, and I don't think they'd waive the result, just add punishment to the school (ineligible for next season's tourney, for instance.)

As the player executing the cheat, is that something you're gonna hold your head high about? How do you tell anybody about it? I'd feel like such a fraud.

[laxfan25]

Even if both his feet were outside the goal when the ball crossed the plane of the goal his momentum can't carry him into the crease. That's the basis of the diving rule, that they banned from lacrosse.

Not exactly true, your momentum can carry you running into the crease AFTER the ball has broken the plane - the rule says you can't jump or dive into the crease - either before or after it breaks the plane. In this case it looks like he kind of slides in. I wouldn't have waived the goal for a jump or dive in this instance.

[Dan Wishengrad]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a hidden ball trick and it's not illegal unless, of course, you use your hand to put the ball in the stick as in this example. I believe that Bainbridge pulled the hidden ball trick against Arapahoe in their game earlier this season here in Washington, but it was done perfectly legally. Perhaps that planted the seed in the coach's mind and he looked for an opportunity to use it himself?

I don't really get these calls for sanctions against the coach. Why? The play would have been legal and perhaps -- just perhaps -- it was accidental that in the transfer of the ball from one player to the other that it landed in the guy's cuff instead of in the pocket of his crosse. While attention was focused on the other player driving (without the ball), the guy did what he had to do, pulling the ball out of his cuff and it just happened the refs missed the illegal touching. The play may have been designed as entirely legal and the ball just got caught in the glove by accident. Let's not be so harsh as to assume it was intended to hide the ball inside the glove, folks.

I remember back in the early 80s that Hopkins did a west coast exhibition tour after the college season ended. They were playing the Monterey men's club and pulled a wild hidden ball trick: all six players on the EMO team ran to the top of the box and had a little huddle with their sticks on the inside. Then they all broke the huddle suddenly and in different directions, with all six guys cradling. All six players wound up and "shot" at the same time, but the goalie had no clue which player actually had the ball. The guy who did shot wide, no goal. Fun to watch though, and very entertaining.

[laxfan25]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a hidden ball trick and it's not illegal unless, of course, you use your hand to put the ball in the stick as in this example. The play would have been legal and perhaps -- just perhaps -- it was accidental that in the transfer of the ball from one player to the other that it landed in the guy's cuff instead of in the pocket of his crosse. While attention was focused on the other player driving (without the ball), the guy did what he had to do, pulling the ball out of his cuff and it just happened the refs missed the illegal touching. The play may have been designed as entirely legal and the ball just got caught in the glove by accident.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If the ball was anywhere on the player except in the stick it is an illegal procedure, or you could consider it caught in his clothing, which would be awarded by A/P.

Section 7 Art. 2 - If the ball is caught in a player's uniform or equipment other than his crosse, play shall be suspended immediately and the ball shall be awarded by alternate possession.

If you can find a way to execute this legally (such as the huddle and breakaway) - go for it, but this one stinks. By the way, the reason that they added that NO player can be within 5 yards on a restart was to outlaw the huddle play on a restart - it wasn't always like that.

[Steno]

haha - that's the sort of junk we used to pull at lax camps.

[left coast bias]

That's such a crap play, all you have to do to break it up is just run at them when their backs are turned. Granted most people aren't expecting it and man-down units are taught to stay tight but we used to do that at camps and good defensemen would just come come down on our arms when we turned our backs. I wonder if they pulled it any time after that.

[bayhawk]

dive play maybe. cheating - no way. just like boxing, always protect yourself.

[LaxRef]

Even if both his feet were outside the goal when the ball crossed the plane of the goal his momentum can't carry him into the crease. That's the basis of the diving rule, that they banned from lacrosse.

The NCAA rule (I don't have the NFHS book online)
m. If an attacking player deliberately leaves his feet by jumping or diving
and his momentum carries him into the crease area, regardless of
whether he lands in the crease before or after the ball enters the goal.

I have not watched the video to be able to judge if the shooter jumped or dove.

The key part is the "deliberately leaves his feet" part: you can dive if you keep your feet on the ground. I see no indication that this player left his feet. He may have been in the crease before the ball went in, though; it's hard to tell.

[CATLAX MAN]

I've looked at it again a number of times and, IMO, he is clearly in the crease before the ball is in the goal. Look at when his slide begins, the position of his crosse, the reaction from the goalie, and the ripple of the net in sequence. His feet slide into the crease almost immediately.

[Dan Wishengrad]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a hidden ball trick and it's not illegal unless, of course, you use your hand to put the ball in the stick as in this example. The play would have been legal and perhaps -- just perhaps -- it was accidental that in the transfer of the ball from one player to the other that it landed in the guy's cuff instead of in the pocket of his crosse. While attention was focused on the other player driving (without the ball), the guy did what he had to do, pulling the ball out of his cuff and it just happened the refs missed the illegal touching. The play may have been designed as entirely legal and the ball just got caught in the glove by accident.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If the ball was anywhere on the player except in the stick it is an illegal procedure, or you could consider it caught in his clothing, which would be awarded by A/P.

Section 7 Art. 2 - If the ball is caught in a player's uniform or equipment other than his crosse, play shall be suspended immediately and the ball shall be awarded by alternate possession.

If you can find a way to execute this legally (such as the huddle and breakaway) - go for it, but this one stinks. By the way, the reason that they added that NO player can be within 5 yards on a restart was to outlaw the huddle play on a restart - it wasn't always like that.

I think you missed my point, LaxFan. You don't have to explain the rules against illegal touching or the ball trapped in uniform or equipment to me, these are well known and I did spend 25 years reffing lax, after all.

If the intent of this play in question was to purposely hide the ball in the glove OF COURSE the play is illegal and amounts to cheating. What I was saying is that the basic "hidden ball" trick is not illegal:

Ball carrier A1 is running clockwise. Teammate A2 runs counter-clockwise behind A1, in the opposite direction. A1 flips the ball up as A2 runs past him, and A2 makes an apparent motion to catch the ball, but the players' bodies shield hide the ball from the defenders. Both A1 and A2 continue their drives in opposite directions and the defense is not certain who has the ball -- did A2 catch it and take possession, or did A1 flip it up to himself and retain possession? This is a basic misdirection play intended to fool the defense, and if executed well can allow a player with the ball to drive the cage while the entire defense is watching some one else. It is also entirely legal and within the rules.

I have replayed this Arapahoe play a number of times. I'll admit it does look a little fishy that the players come together and to a full stop. But I can not tell if the ball was intentionally placed inside the glove. The point I was trying to make is that it is possible that it got lodged in there accidentally, and rather than stop and show the ref -- "look the ball got caught in my glove" -- the player just kept going ahead with the play, even though it accidentally wound up in his glove. It's like when you are defending and slash the ball carrier accidentally -- do you quit playing and start running to the penalty box, or do you keep defending and hope it doesn't get called?

To be crystal clear -- I am not saying that intentionally hiding the ball in your glove is legal or should be condoned and allowed. I am saying that the age-old "hidden ball" trick is legal and that there is nothing wrong with that. In this specific case, the goal should not have been allowed as there WAS an illegal touch, but it might have enused from an accidental lodging of the ball in the glove and the team scoring got lucky that it was not seen. Lucky twice, actually -- he WAS in the crease before the ball broke the plane.

[laxfan25]

I think you missed my point, LaxFan. What I was saying is that the basic "hidden ball" trick is not illegal:

Ball carrier A1 is running clockwise. Teammate A2 runs counter-clockwise behind A1, in the opposite direction. A1 flips the ball up as A2 runs past him, and A2 makes an apparent motion to catch the ball, but the players' bodies shield hide the ball from the defenders. Both A1 and A2 continue their drives in opposite directions and the defense is not certain who has the ball -- did A2 catch it and take possession, or did A1 flip it up to himself and retain possession? This is a basic misdirection play intended to fool the defense, and if executed well can allow a player with the ball to drive the cage while the entire defense is watching some one else. It is also entirely legal and within the rules.

Ahh, well that IS a different kettle of fish calling the pot black, Dan! I thought you were endorsing sticking the ball in your glove to hide it. I was saying that I didn't think it ended up there accidentally. The misdirection play you refer to is a GREAT play, and Michigan executed it with great regularity last season. It is a lot of fun to see, and can even cause the refs to look the wrong way. I was doing one of their games last year and the flipper was able to stroll right up to the crease while everyone was chasing the "ball carrier", and he just dunked it in. Great fun, except for the goalie.