WCLL Playoffs 2008

Postby SoCalLaxDoctor on Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:08 am

OldRamAlum83 wrote:If Chapman and ASU each win their semifinal game should be an epic battle for the championship. Barring any injuries, great mojo for the winner heading to Dallas. Hard to tell how it will effect the team that loses. .


Wow now partner.......Lets not put the cart before the horse. First ASU should get past Chico with out much problem. Just not enough talent at Chico to match up with the Sun Devils. Chapman should handle Noma if the team that ran with BYU and Ithaca and dismantled Whittier shows up. Then it will be an ASU vs Chapman finals. If that's the match up then it is going to boil down to depth and defense given the format of semi's and final's on back to back days.

BTW can anyone explain why the WCLL does not have a seeded playoff system? Performance during the regular season and thru the playoffs should determine seeding for the tournament (NCAA). Meaning no disrespect to the decision makers, selecting playoff match ups in the fall is kind of like pre selecting an All Star Team at the beginning of the season. Kind of like validating pre season polls! Playoffs should be based upon the NCAA model which is totally performance based. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it boys. It ain't about location, it's about rewarding success during the regular season!
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Postby CATLAX MAN on Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:43 am

SoCalLaxDoctor wrote:BTW can anyone explain why the WCLL does not have a seeded playoff system? Performance during the regular season and thru the playoffs should determine seeding for the tournament (NCAA). Meaning no disrespect to the decision makers, selecting playoff match ups in the fall is kind of like pre selecting an All Star Team at the beginning of the season. Kind of like validating pre season polls! Playoffs should be based upon the NCAA model which is totally performance based. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it boys. It ain't about location, it's about rewarding success during the regular season!


This is an excellent question. For the last few years, the conferences' best teams don't make it to the final weekend, while lesser teams do make it. A seeded playoff system would make those teams have to earn that spot, rather than coasting in through the back door.
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Postby UkraineNotWeak on Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:34 am

I agree. However, hypothetically, what if Chico is the #1 seed and Arizona is the #8 seed in the quarterfinals? Now, in such a scenario, what if the semifinals are held in the Bay Area. If Arizona knocks off Chico on the road, they would have to make a trip to the Bay the following week. If they performed well, they may get an invitation to Nationals, whereupon they would shell out more dough. That ain't a cheap month.
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Postby Tom on Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:47 am

UkraineNotWeak wrote:I agree. However, hypothetically, what if Chico is the #1 seed and Arizona is the #8 seed in the quarterfinals? Now, in such a scenario, what if the semifinals are held in the Bay Area. If Arizona knocks off Chico on the road, they would have to make a trip to the Bay the following week. If they performed well, they may get an invitation to Nationals, whereupon they would shell out more dough. That ain't a cheap month.


If that were the case, then they have to step up and fund raise the money or be one of the best teams in the league so you don't have to travel. I don't feel for teams that play the money card. If your program isn't prepared to pay the absolute most they could pay in a season, then I would question their teams goals for that year. If you put the time and effort into fund raising, you can get the money you need. If people want to keep saying money is an issue, then only have a semi's and finals. Don't play the quarterfinals.

I agree that something needs to change with the WCLL Playoff system.
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Postby UkraineNotWeak on Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:51 am

If that were the case, then they have to step up and fund raise the money or be one of the best teams in the league so you don't have to travel.


What a novel idea. Hey you over there, why can't you play lacrosse better? You're costing your teammates more money!
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Postby CTL24 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:04 am

actually, this is probably already somewhat common
looking at Chapman's game vs UCSB earlier this year, Chapman players understood it would be a 5000 dollar trip to AZ for playoffs if they lost
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Postby westcoastlax on Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:43 pm

The current system is fine the way it is. SB went into the playoffs ranked Top 10 and they lost. Everyone pretty much knows that the ASU/UCSB game was essentially the semi-final game, cuz now ASU has a cake walk into the finals (although they will still have to show up for the game, cuz any given Sunday).

If this game would have taken place as the actual semi-final game and the same result occured, it would have the same affect on SB's poll position.

The pollsters aren't gonna think about the fact that they lost in the quarter finals, they will look at the fact that they lost to the #6 team by 6 goals, and that is what they will base their decision on.

Bottom Line is still: DON'T LOSE
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Postby Ravaging Beast on Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:21 pm

There is no way teams can afford to travel on such short notice two weeks in a row and possibly have to make another trip to Nationals on short notice. It needs to be kept the way it is.
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Postby slider on Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:19 pm

The alternative would be to have the playoffs in one weekend at one location. Possibly Thurs/Sat/Sun. That would be the easiest way for the playoffs to be seeded. The league should try to have the best championship weekend possible and showcase the best teams in the league. The current system creates the possibility that good teams get knocked out early.
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Postby SDSULAX on Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:24 pm

The current system creates the possibility that good teams get knocked out early.



You must be describing how the NCAA National Championship is run, it doesn't really make a difference, you need to win your games to get to the top, the current system for conducting the WCLL playoffs was not concocted in a "smoke filled room", it works, it is considered fair. We have a process in the WCLL to change things and it does not involve taking input from the message boards by anonymous posters.
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Postby buffalowill on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:07 pm

Wouldn't mind seeing the WCLL go back to a North/South split like it was in 2004.
Yes, I realize we have more teams now, but we can then really find out who the top teams are...Right now the North really only has 3 conference games each when the LA division has 5.
It really doesn't make sense to me that a team should make the playoffs when they only count 3 games out of 19 possible matchups within the conference. I know that most teams play more WCLL opponents, but they don't really count as "conference games" because they have no bearing whatsoever on the WCLL playoffs.
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Postby SDSULAX on Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:35 pm

There will most likely be some restructuring of the divisions as we add teams that are already considered Division 1 teams by the MCLA into Division 1 at the fall meeting.
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Postby AIRTERP on Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:39 pm

SDSULAX wrote:
The current system creates the possibility that good teams get knocked out early.



You must be describing how the NCAA National Championship is run, it doesn't really make a difference, you need to win your games to get to the top, the current system for conducting the WCLL playoffs was not concocted in a "smoke filled room", it works, it is considered fair. We have a process in the WCLL to change things and it does not involve taking input from the message boards by anonymous posters.


I have to respectfully disagree. But before I do, I caution anyone, especially league officials against categorically dismissing the input from message board posters. I'll be the first to admit that the posters are not always "right", not to mention "sober." But, lets not forget who these posters are. They are players, former players, coaches, parents and fans. They are the reason the MCLA is where it is, and they are the reason it will be where it will be in the future. And after all aren't they what all this hullabaloo is all about? Who knows, sometimes the are even right.

Which brings me to my disagreement (respectfully). Saying the current WCLL playoff system works is like shaving with a piece of broken glass. Sure it'll probably get the job done, but I think we can all agree there is a better way to do it. Taking the money concern out of the equation, I defy someone to come up with a logical explanation of why the seeding system wouldn't work better. It's impossible. Can't be done.

Why? Because IT'S A BETTER SYSTEM! I think the problem is that everyone is looking at it in the context of this season. They are saying, "no one in their right mind would give a National Tournament bid to Chico State over Santa Barbara despite them making the final four and the Gauchos bowing out in the quarters." Well that's all fine and dandy in a year where you have four elite teams that are just a cut above the rest.

What happens when there are 5 or 6 elite teams that are evenly matched? And we know this is coming...the parity gets greater every year. The WCLL is a strong conference, and historically speaking, making the final four gives you a significant shot at the National Tournament. Outside of the final four? All bets are off. Now with 5 or 6 top teams, you could have two teams who would have been seeded #1 and #3, playing in the first round. One team is going to lose and that loser is likely not making the national tournament. The two teams could be playing the #8 and #6 seeded teams respectfully. You're telling me that these two teams don't greatly prefer the seeded system?

Furthermore...I would love to meet someone who considers this current system "fair." And once that person has made my acquaintance, I would love to hear their explanation as to why it is so. Because, unless I am missing something, the only justification for the current system that has been employed is the issue of money. The current system saves a hypothetical team from having to make two costly and possibly unexpected trips in the same number of weeks. Really? That's our definition of fair for the entire league? Saving 'hypothetical team's' money? Hogwash, I say.

The money issue is a substantial one. And should be considered by every team, every season, INDIVIDUALLY. BUT, to use it as justification for fairness in keeping an inherently unfair and ultimately broken system is silly. Fairness is found in rewarding a team for their season long performance, which the seeding system does. So let's make it fair ladies and gentlemen!

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Postby CATLAX MAN on Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:40 pm

SDSULAX wrote:You must be describing how the NCAA National Championship is run, it doesn't really make a difference, you need to win your games to get to the top, the current system for conducting the WCLL playoffs was not concocted in a "smoke filled room", it works, it is considered fair. We have a process in the WCLL to change things and it does not involve taking input from the message boards by anonymous posters.


Craig, I think you're being a little over-sensitive here. I looked back at the posts and no one suggested that "smoke filled rooms", collusion, or anything else that you are reading into this discussion were involved. One person asked a very good question, "why isn't a seeded playoff system used?" Others have agreed or disagreed with that viewpoint.

You say that "it works" and "it's fair." Maybe so, maybe not....... but there is no reason not to discuss that issue. It appears that some disagee with that viewpoint, just as other questions about realignment have come up. Whether anything comes of that discussion at the Board level is another story, but an exchange of ideas and discussion shouldn't be a bad thing.
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Postby SDSULAX on Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:11 pm

Maybe I need to state it another way, If you have a better idea to do it than the way it is now, write it down and have a current player, or member of the BOD or coach submit it for consideration to the Secretary of the WCLL. Is that better? If you want to PM me all of the details, I will even submit it for you.
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