GRLC Action (4/16-4/22) Discuss Games/Report Scores

[Michael Martin]

I think there is a lot of lacrosse yet to be played this weekend before the tournament seedings become clear.

South subconference:
Harding 4-0
If SLU losses to Wash U, they hold the tie breaker in a 3-way tie with Missouri S&T and Wash U. If they beat Wash U., they come in at 3-1.

Northwest subconference:
Assuming Dordt and Creighton run the table
Dordt 4-0 and Creighton 3-1
If Creighton stumbles with UN-Omaha, UN-Omaha is in at 3-1

Northeast subconference:
Only one game with playoff implications played - Wheaton over Augustana. I would not even try to guess the outcomes of the remaining games between Wheaton, Augustana, and DePaul.

In a couple of days, it will all be much clearer.

[DRich17]

how does the Div II playoff bracket get set up anyways?

[MBlax327]

In a couple of days, it will all be much clearer.

Way to be, Coach, Way to be. The season is not over yet!

[Matt_Gardiner]

FWIW... The worst a team that wins all of its required games could do is a 3 seed. It would go down to Average Goal Differential.

Dordt and Harding would fight over the #1 and #2 seeds with a coin flip. Both are +27 in 4 games or +6.75/game.

If the winner of Wheaton/DePaul wins by 5 or more and win their other games (Cornell & Augustana) by 8 or more, they would be +21 in 3 games or +7.00/game. That would give them the #1 seed.

Every year I try to guess how the playoff seeding will shake-out. Every year a team throws in an unexpected wrinkle. It is dangerous to guess how the seeding will pan out, but I am confident that a team from the "Illinois" subdivision will be in the top 3.

[Matt_Gardiner]

Correction...

Harding is +25 in 4 games - 6.25 gpg

If Dordt beats South Dakota by 7 or more they will have a better goal differential. They are currently +19 in 3 games - 6.33 gpg.

Wheaton & DePaul still have a chance to overtake the #1 seed. Currently it looks like Harding's will be fortunate to get a #1 seed.

AGAIN - It is still to early to make any predictions. Things will change they always do. It is best to wait until the end and see where everyone is at.

[norway]

How is it possible that teams with losses in the conference can take the #1 seed? That doesn't make any sense. You are also saying that DePaul can take the #1 over Harding. That wouldn't make sense either due to the fact that Harding beat them in the regular season. It was a very close game, but Harding did beat them. Therefore, it would seem appropriate that the two teams that have gone undefeated in conference play get the 1 & 2 seeds. Would that not be correct?

[Matt_Gardiner]

It is not because the ONLY games that count are the required subdivision games. Our games against Augustana, Wheaton, and DePaul have no bearing on the playoffs. The only games that count for us are Harding, S&T, Wash U, and Rockhurst. It was the deal agreed to in the Fall and previous falls. Also to make things cleaner everyone agreed that each subdivision will get 2 teams into the Conference Tournament.

No matter how things are set up there will be unseen and interesting situations arising. In the fall, everyone agrees to accept the rules for the conference tournament and to play by them. It is meant to eliminate complaining as much as possible (I am in NO way saying you are complaining). It just means that if SLU finds itself on the short-end of the stick, I can be upset but I accepted the playoff rules going into the year and knew what the rules were. The problem would be if rules were adjusted as the year went on to account for different situations. SLU beat Wheaton and DePaul and I can guarantee one of them will be seeded higher than we are. I am 100% okay with that because it was the rules I agreed to at the beginning of the year.

Unless we make a decision that every team in the GRLC will play one another every year (13 GRLC DII Games and lots of travel), we will have odd seedings that may not seem fair, although they are infinitly fair. Even then you can get weird tie-breaker situations. Everyone has agreed unanimously that the system we have now and the tie-breakers in place will be used. Everyone agrees before the season, making what may not seem to be fair to actually be fair. If that makes sense. If we began making exceptions, it would be extremely unfair to everyone else.

FWIW, this system is more fair than when the crossover tournament was in play. Then you had even more uneven schedules that were begin used to seed teams for playoffs.

Ultimately the best team will win the playoffs. They may have to win 3 games, they may have to win 2 games. The best team will win and whomever wins will be the undisputed GRLC D-II Champion of 2008.

[culax]

In 2005 Creighton defeated both Harding and Western Illinois in the regular season. Creighton was the #3 seed in the playoffs because we lost to Nebraska and both Harding and Western were undefeated in their subdivision. No one has ever petitioned to have the rules changed.

[norway]

So, if there happens to be 3 teams that go into playoffs that are undefeated in their subdivision, only the goal differential decides who is ranked at 1,2, &3. A team could lose to every other team in the GRLC, but they win out in their subdivision and they could get #1. That's WEAK!
There should be other factors that are considered in the seeding. Sounds to me like the rules were made so the people in charge wouldn't have to think when making a decision. Either way congrats to Dordt and Harding for going undefeated in the GRLC (not just your subdivision) and for having solid seasons. Some things just don't make sense.

[norway]

By the way, is anyone playing this weekend?

[Matt_Gardiner]

It is not WEAK. It is the system that everyone agrees to before games are played. It is FAIR. The conference is always open to different systems. I would be curious to know what others would recommend. There is nothing weak about everyone agreeing to play be a set of rules before the season and then actually playing by that set of rules.

What would happen if DePaul earns the #1 seed by goal differential, Dordt #2, and Harding #3. Which is possible. Where would you put Harding then?

[scooter]

By the way, is anyone playing this weekend?

Wheaton plays DePaul tonight

Depaul plays Augustana Saturday.

and to comment about your earlier statement. Hypothetically, a Wheaton/Depaul could win only 3 games all year by 8 goals as long as they are all the games in their subdivision and they would all but be assured the #1 seed in playoffs.

If Wheaton were to beat Augustana, Depaul, and Cornell by 8; but get whooped by every other team they play, they still get in. This is obviously not the case, since Wheaton looked real good earlier this year, but its something to think about

[norway]

Gardiner:
There is nothing wrong w/ coaches abiding by the system they agreed to. What is wrong is the simplicity of the system being used. If a team cannot win outside of its subdivision, then there is no way that team should be slotted the #1 spot in playoffs, which remember is for the entire GRLC and all the other subdivisions. Now be logical, how is that fair to the 2 teams that have gone undefeated through all the GRLC competition they have played. If you do not understand this, I'm sorry. I'm not used to having to explain things at a 1st grade level.

Ohhh...you slotted Harding at #3. How is that a question? I would not slot Wheaton at #1 given their body of work through the season. So, therefore Dordt and HU at #1 & #2 the order in that case is not as critical as the fact of any other team being #1.

*Just as a note, I am not a student, coach, player, or representative of the teams being discussed.

[NELAX21]

and to comment about your earlier statement. Hypothetically, a Wheaton/Depaul could win only 3 games all year by 8 goals as long as they are all the games in their subdivision and they would all but be assured the #1 seed in playoffs.

If Wheaton were to beat Augustana, Depaul, and Cornell by 8; but get whooped by every other team they play, they still get in. This is obviously not the case, since Wheaton looked real good earlier this year, but its something to think about

i simple solution in my mind is keep the system in place, but change the tie breaker rules. 1. head to head if possible 2. overall record then 3. goal differential. That way a team that is 3-7 but beat the 3 teams in their subdivision by 8+ goals does not get the #1 seed over a team that it 8-2 but didn't win all the subdivision games by 8.

[scooter]

i think the system is fine as is. Everyone knows the rules they need to play by. The GRLC-2 is deeper this year than ever before, so there are no easy cake games in the playoffs (or at least one would hope not). Whether or not you have to win 2 or 3 games shouldn't be the issue. Just win out and you go Nationals, end of story.