PBS' Frontline: "Bush's War"

Non-lacrosse specific topics.

Postby Steno on Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:06 pm

Sonny wrote:
StrykerFSU wrote:But I guess there is always the possibility that W orchestrated an international plot involving the military, the city government of New York, al Quaeda, multiple airport security details, and numerous others to kill thousands of American citizens so that he would have the pretense to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. All without anyone anywhere getting a hint of his dastardly plot. Yeah, I guess that makes sense too.


W is far too stupid to pull that plot off.


For once I agree with Sonny. Seems to me like we give way too much credit to our gov't. It doesn't seem like we can blame our gov't for 9/11, but we can blame them for reacting to the atrocity in probably the worst way possible.
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Postby semilaxed on Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:34 pm

Aren't most jet skins made out of a magnesium that burns at over 2000 degrees and ignite at under 800. Ignoring that fact has been at the heart of the whole issue. The planes can burn and melt everything associated with them. Thats why you find more parts of planes in water and not on land. If you let a plane sit in fire long enough it will catch fire. I mean I haven't written a book or anything. I am sure Bush had put in the Asbestos laws in 1981 so the building would fall down faster.

Really the main reason why I know this is someone at my high school stole some Mg Tape and rapped it around a door nob, and lit it with a small blow torch. The tape melted the door nob off the door.
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Postby laxfan25 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:11 am

semilaxed wrote: Aren't most jet skins made out of a magnesium that burns at over 2000 degrees and ignite at under 800.

No, most airplane skins are made out of aluminum. A magnesium airplane would not be a good idea at all.
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Postby Dan Warren on Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:14 am

you need to consider that fact that a fire inside a building is oxygen deprived, and therefore will not be able to burn at its highest temperature.

Also, ,if the fire was hot enough to melt steel, how could firefighters be at the seat of the fire, relaying messages that they only need two lines to knock it down, and that it had pretty much put itself out?

Even if the fire weakened the beams enough for them to detach themselves from the core columns and cause the collapse of floors on top of each other (pancake theory), the 47 major core columns would still be standing. They weren't. They were found sliced into convenient 24-48 foot long pieces. Easy to dispose of after a controlled demolition.

The following is from "Debunking 9-11 Debunking" in regards to a journal published by WPI called "Sulfidation of Steel" WPI proffessor Jonathan Barnett points out that fire and structural damage "would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partially evaporated in extraordinary high temperatures." The Journal further suggested the significance of the discovery by pointing out the presence of sulfur in this eutectic reaction saying "the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity" This point is especially significant because, as Steven Jones points out, sulfur is a common ingredient in explosives.

The WPI Journal, while not mentioning the possible use of explosives, did describe the damage to the metal in a way that would seem hard to explain if explosives had not been used, saying:

The significance of the work on a sample from building 7 and structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal. A one inch column has been reduced to half inch thickness. Its edges- which are curled like a paper scroll- have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes - some larger than a sliver dollar-let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending- but not holes.

As shown by the reaction of these fire-wise professors- WPI at the time had a Fire Protection Engineering program, which in 2005 became a full-fledged department- this was a truly shocking discovery. New York Times called it "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation"
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Postby StrykerFSU on Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:51 am

Again, I hate to burst your bubble but a book written by a philosopher is probably not the best source on matters involving metallurgy, architecture, physics, etc.

This is the letter by Dr. Barnett published in JOM by the The Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society that your post referred to:
ANALYSIS

Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html

And here is the rest of the "greatest mystery statement"
The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.

"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html
So the authors suggest acid rain as a cause of the lowered melting point of steel...no mention of bombs. Clearly, the debunking book takes these comments out of context.

Another article, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation" by Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso of MIT, from the same issue of JOM. There are many points in this article, some highlights:
While the aircraft impact undoubtedly destroyed several columns in the WTC perimeter wall, the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure. Of equal or even greater significance during this initial impact was the explosion when 90,000 L gallons of jet fuel, comprising nearly 1/3 of the aircraft’s weight, ignited. The ensuing fire was clearly the principal cause of the collapse.

The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse. Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted. It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present. This is not true.

Part of the problem is that people (including engineers) often confuse temperature and heat. While they are related, they are not the same. Thermodynamically, the heat contained in a material is related to the temperature through the heat capacity and the density (or mass). Temperature is defined as an intensive property, meaning that it does not vary with the quantity of material, while the heat is an extensive property, which does vary with the amount of material. One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace, the temperature does not double; it stays roughly the same, but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns, or a combination of the two, doubles. Thus, the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel.

Some reports suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot.

It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.

The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire.

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
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Postby Dan Warren on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:50 am

You are not "bursting my bubble" by trying to discredit the author. Griffen being a philosopher makes no difference. His efforts as an intelligent researcher that cites his sources are enough.

I am also not asking you or anyone else to take my word for it, in regards to what happened that day. Just to have an open mind, and do a little more research outside the mainstream media.

I will counter further when I get a little more time this weekend.
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Postby Dan Warren on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:55 am

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Postby StrykerFSU on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:01 am

Dan Warren wrote:You are not "bursting my bubble" by trying to discredit the author. Griffen being a philosopher makes no difference. His efforts as an intelligent researcher that cites his sources are enough.

I am also not asking you or anyone else to take my word for it, in regards to what happened that day. Just to have an open mind, and do a little more research outside the mainstream media.

I will counter further when I get a little more time this weekend.


MIT is the main stream media?:shock:

I only came across the JOM publication by fact checking your post on the "Sulfidation of Steel" by Dr. Barnett. I also posted the titles of several articles published by foreign researchers that explain the reasons for the Towers' collapse...surely, they all can't be on the U.S. government's payroll. Are they all complicit in the conspiracy?

You don't have to believe everything the government tells you but when presented with scientific research from a variety of peer-reviewed sources, perhaps you need to reassess your assumptions.
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Postby StrykerFSU on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:39 am

Must...resist...posting...again...oh well, can't do it.

So I go to the first 911truther link and I download 65 pages entitled "Mysteries of the Twin Towers" by Rodger Herbst. Fascinating stuff really. It's got footnotes and everything so I download the footnotes. And wouldn't you know it, all of the referenced articles come from links that are now invalid or other 911truth websites! I was so surprised. So the "proof" is really no more accurate or fact checked than someone posting opinion on this forum.

As a published scientist (Buck et al., 2006 in Geochemistry, Geophysics, Geosystems if you need to catch up on some sleep), let me be the first to tell you that if I were to use similar "sources" in my research papers, the journal reviewers would laugh in my face. But see, that's the thing about peer-reviewed scholarly journals (like JOM that I cited previously) you have to substantiate your claims with real evidence and open your work to the critique of experts in the field. This "Mysteries" report is cited like a high school research paper.

With that, I think I'll retire from this debate. But don't worry, the truth is out there.
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Postby Sonny on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:44 am

StrykerFSU wrote:With that, I think I'll retire from this debate. But don't worry, the truth is out there.


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Postby Jac Coyne on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:55 am

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Postby Dan Warren on Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:25 pm

my comment about Mainstream media was not in reference to your post of an MIT journal writing, it was in general.

You don't have to believe everything the government tells you but when presented with scientific research from a variety of peer-reviewed sources, perhaps you need to reassess your assumptions.


there is plenty of scientific research to prove the "alternative conspiracy theory". Just opening up one website and disproving one, or a couple articles, doesn't end the discussion.

off to my game. I would like to continue this as long as it can stay friendly...

Jac Coyne, I hope you are not trying say that because I demand another investigation of 9-11 that I don't believe we landed on the moon.
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Postby Jana on Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:02 pm

quick comments before I head out for my game (officiating tonight):

I don't recall steel beams sitting stacked in neatly measured forms, like giant tinkertoys sized 24 and 48 feet. I recall bent masses of metal that required welders from around the world to cut through trying to reach people.

I remember the fires continued to burn for weeks after 9/11. So the metals may have continued to change after 9/11 and certainly they had a variety of substances poured on them over the ensuing weeks.

I remember a demolition expert stating last year that wiring up 3 different buildings with enough explosives to bring them all down would require truckloads of explosives, thousands of miles of wiring, and would be impossible to set it all up without being discovered.

And yeah, I remember a building collapsing....not melting (thank you HS drop out Rosie for that science lesson), and I don't recall any other major sky scraper hit by a fuel laden commercial airliner to act as a control group.
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Postby KnoxVegas on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:12 pm

These are photos of the damage that EL AL Flight 1862, a 747 cargo plane, did after it crash on emergency approach to Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport on 4 October 1992. The flight took off at 6:22 pm local time and by 6:27pm at an altitude of 6500 feet, it's #3 & #4 engines detached from their mounts and fell into a lake. The pilot made a series of distress call to AMS tower and was given permission to make an emergency landing. At 6:35:25 pm the EL AL pilot radioed the tower to tell them that he was going down. This is what the accident site looked like:

The plane was loaded with enough fuel to make the flight from AMS to TLV, a distance of about 2060 miles (By comparison BOS-LAX 2600 miles and EWR-SFO 2560 miles)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijlmer_disaster
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