MCLA-D1 T25 Results: Mar 17-23rd

[Zamboni_Driver]

so, if i hear correctly from the previous two posts, freezing the win as a t10 (or whatever) win makes no sense because that would intern mean that further rankings for that t10 who lost were meaningless. if team A beats a t10 and then the t10 drops, considering that team A still beat a t10 team makes no sense to me.....

What if I said this...

I believe AZ was a T10-12 team when Cal Poly upset them. Since that time I believe they have fallen in performance/competition and are not a T20 team. Their fall was not due to lack of talent but early in their season they took several loses to good competition and their expectations for the year did not meet reality (i.e T10). I think that can really hurt focus and intensity for a bunch of 18-22 year olds (but is a good learning experience for them). AZ became a victim of their scheduling. At the start of the season they were facing numerous T10 teams and a few T20-25; but they didn't schedule any T14-18 so that they could show an "at-minimum competitive level" (did that make any sense?). So when they lost the T10 and a T20 Cal Poly came out better then expected, their schedule provided little opportunity for redemption. Thus this long winded response means I don't fault Cal Poly because them beating AZ contributed to AZ's decline.



And may I also say thanks to the AZ players, coaches, and fans for letting us have this discussion using you guys as an example. It is a great discussion on evaluting teams over broad circumstances.

[univduke21]

SOS is a slippery slope. If I was a voter I would put a lot of imporatance on who you play and where. But how high can you rank a 4 or 5 loss team?

This year proves very difficult. Chapman has played a good schedule but they don't leave CA. I think that is important. The same goes for Colorado, a good schedule but they don't leave Colorado until the conference tournament.

If I was a voter I would have a tough time ranking Chapman #1 if there is a really good 1 loss or two loss team that played big road games.

If Michigan losses one game they are still #1 to me. CSU is a good situation too.

If Chapman does through the conference tournament undefeated (MCLA play) it is really hard not to vote them #1. But hey that's why we have the tournament right????? A #2 shouldn't matter!

[SoCalLaxDoctor]

SOS is a slippery slope. If I was a voter I would put a lot of imporatance on who you play and where. But how high can you rank a 4 or 5 loss team?

This year proves very difficult. Chapman has played a good schedule but they don't leave CA. I think that is important. The same goes for Colorado, a good schedule but they don't leave Colorado until the conference tournament.

If I was a voter I would have a tough time ranking Chapman #1 if there is a really good 1 loss or two loss team that played big road games.

If Michigan losses one game they are still #1 to me. CSU is a good situation too.

If Chapman does through the conference tournament undefeated (MCLA play) it is really hard not to vote them #1. But hey that's why we have the tournament right????? A #2 shouldn't matter!

I am not sure your logic makes any sense. Undefeated in the MCLA with a quality win over then number one BYU and a near upset of NCAA DIII third ranked ITHACA speaks far more to me then a Big Road Win. Teams tend to bond on a road trip and frequently play above themselves and more as a team, having less distractions and more coach control. It also appears that there were games originally scheduled for Chapman to host Oregon and the Arizona schools, who all seemed to have canceled out or failed to reciprocate with Chapman this year. Last year Chapman traveled to Az, Colo and Oregon. The year before they went to Florida. Seems like you are slamming a team for traveling and then reciprocating. This year Florida. Utah and Northeastern traveled to Cali to play Chapman. I see Michigan as #1 in the polls because of the ranking of their defeated opponents, but clearly Chapman deserves consideration for #1 and should soundly be #2. After one and two it's a crap shoot.

[freddoi]

Zamboni_Driver
Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:57 am Post subject:
freddoi wrote:
so, if i hear correctly from the previous two posts, freezing the win as a t10 (or whatever) win makes no sense because that would intern mean that further rankings for that t10 who lost were meaningless. if team A beats a t10 and then the t10 drops, considering that team A still beat a t10 team makes no sense to me.....


What if I said this...

I believe AZ was a T10-12 team when Cal Poly upset them. Since that time I believe they have fallen in performance/competition and are not a T20 team. Their fall was not due to lack of talent but early in their season they took several loses to good competition and their expectations for the year did not meet reality (i.e T10). I think that can really hurt focus and intensity for a bunch of 18-22 year olds (but is a good learning experience for them). AZ became a victim of their scheduling. At the start of the season they were facing numerous T10 teams and a few T20-25; but they didn't schedule any T14-18 so that they could show an "at-minimum competitive level" (did that make any sense?). So when they lost the T10 and a T20 Cal Poly came out better then expected, their schedule provided little opportunity for redemption. Thus this long winded response means I don't fault Cal Poly because them beating AZ contributed to AZ's decline.



And may I also say thanks to the AZ players, coaches, and fans for letting us have this discussion using you guys as an example. It is a great discussion on evaluting teams over broad circumstances.

if i understand what you are saying, you think that at the time calpoly beat arizona, arizona was/mayhavebeen a t10 team, but have since slipped. therefore poly's win should stay as a t10 win. i think thats what you mean. i respond by saying that teams show their true colors (and rank) as the season progresses. so if arizona has shown that they are truly a 20-25 or worse team, then how can it be said that at the time they played poly(or any team) they were better and held a legitimate stronger rank.

lets look at this the opposite way and use a possibly real but still hypothetical scenario. SFU just beat sonoma. ealier sonoma beat csu. without getting into actual reasons for these teams moving up or down, lets just outline the case for this argument. if sonoma moves up higher than 9, which they are, lets say to 5 (stay with me)...then should SFU get credit for a t5 win, or still just a t10??????

and i second the thanks to arizona/poly players, coaches, etc. for baring with us. i guess i should include SFU and NOMA since i just brought them into it

[Zamboni_Driver]

freddoi --

If I could change the analogy from SFU/SSU/CSU to UGA/FSU/UCSB since the analogous situation is similar in time between games.

The UGA/FSU/UCSB situation is the reverse situation to AZ/Cal Poly. UGA beat FSU when FSU was 16th and on Feb 23rd. FSU goes on to 5 straight wins including Central Florida, Loyola-Marymount, and UCSB (which was March 24th). And the latest poll they are 11th. Do I give credit to UGA for beating the 11th or the 16th place team? The 16th over a month ago. Do I think UGA could beat UCSB? No. I think FSU has improved since their loss, and UGA has flatlined (beating Utah, 2 SELC teams, and loss to VT). Do I think UGA could beat FSU now - probably not (especially at FSU home-field).

I just don't assume everyone develops at the same rate. Some develop early, some later in the season. Some have a rapid improvement, some gradually improve, others may flatline and even get worse.

I think your approach is valid too. That is why having 40 voters with a diverse approach system smooths out any inconsistencies and gets the best rankings possible.

[univduke21]

"Teams tend to bond on a road trip and frequently play above themselves and more as a team, having less distractions and more coach control."

Funny last time I played home games were much easier to play? I don't know of too many people that would choose a road game over a home game?!?

"It also appears that there were games originally scheduled for Chapman to host Oregon and the Arizona schools, who all seemed to have canceled out or failed to reciprocate with Chapman this year. Last year Chapman traveled to Az, Colo and Oregon. The year before they went to Florida. Seems like you are slamming a team for traveling and then reciprocating."

This is going to sound childish but, SO. This is what have you done for me this year not who and where did you play last year. Don't get me wrong I think that what they have done so far is impressive but come on not a single road game out of CA?

[CATLAX MAN]

It seems just a little ironic that a Colorado supporter is compaining about not playing road games.

[Madlaxer07]

In response to Catlax last post - if you were to have read a little deeper into the first post by univduke you would have read " This year proves very difficult. Chapman has played a good schedule but they don't leave CA. I think that is important. The same goes for Colorado, a good schedule but they don't leave Colorado until the conference tournament." Good try though.

[CATLAX MAN]

My point was.....for those that don't get it...... that Colorado shouldn't even be talking about road games after cancelling a trip to Florida at the last minute.

[univduke21]

Apparently I am not allowed to talk because Colorado doesn't play a road game? Where did I ever say that Colorado shouldn't be penalized for not leaving Colorado? Can I not have a disagreement with Colorado's schedule even though I am a Colorado supporter? I think while the don't leave Colorado they do have a better schedule than Chapman, but I am not allowed to say that right Catlax because you wouldn't want me to believe that the RMLC is better than the WCLL, right?

Here is the situation, I think both teams in my mind would be penalized in my polls for not playing road games, with that being said I think that it is imporatant you still win games.

The funny thing about the poll this week, is that some didn't get the CU/Cal Poly and CSU/Oregon scores, but do they really change the polls all that much?

It would be tough to put BYU in front of Oregon, because they lost to #4 and beat #12. And the jumble that is 8-12 I have no idea how you begin to sort that out, thank jebus that there is still a bunch of lax to play.

[CATLAX MAN]

Again, you're not getting the point I was trying to convey. My criticism is not about the number of road games being played, even if it is none. It is about the fact that Colorado cancelled a scheduled road game against FSU at the eleventh hour for an unexplained reason.

Playing no road games is odd, but not punishable, IMO. Cancelling a road game at the eleventh hour should carry a major penalty, such as forfeiting eligibility for the polls and tournament....also IMO.

[univduke21]

I understand you opinion but I disagree. Name another sport where that happens? And the 11th hour is a strech, considering the game was cancelled in advance and I know Coach Galvin and I am sure that there was communication with FSU.

It is imporatant that this league grows and that team make scheduled games, but if you have to choose between an early road trip and a conference tournament road trip/nc trip which is more important?

[More Cowbell]

Cancelling a road game at the eleventh hour should carry a major penalty, such as forfeiting eligibility for the polls and tournament.

That's a little extreme...I think at most it should mean that the team forfeits the games missed, and possibly a fine

[CATLAX MAN]

It is imporatant that this league grows and that team make scheduled games, but if you have to choose between an early road trip and a conference tournament road trip/nc trip which is more important?

Neither. What is most important is meeting the commitments that have been made. Failure to meet those commitments should be harshly dealt with.

[univduke21]

Have you ever had to cancel a doctor's appointment? Yes there is a small fine (like losing the game you cancel) but they certainly don't hike up your insurance premiums, and stick you with unnecessary needles the next time you come to the doctor's office.