RMLC & WCLL compete for championship

[Zeuslax]

There will be some varsity coaches in Dallas watching games. Especially the Div A final 4. Smart recruiting for a few kids that may have slipped through the cracks. I think we'll see that our league will become another outlet for recruiting.

[scooter]

There will be some varsity coaches in Dallas watching games. Especially the Div A final 4. Smart recruiting for a few kids that may have slipped through the cracks. I think we'll see that our league will become another outlet for recruiting.

are you privied to which teams?

[shep]

As the MCLA programs in the region become more organized, they will become attractive playing options for these talented high schoolers.

I agree here. Texas has a couple high school programs that could compete against some East Coast schools.... (St. Marks, St. Johns, Highland Park, ESD)

However, many of the kids that graduate from these schools disappear after high school.

I see both sides to this debate. Texas has gone through an incredible growth period here & just like Denver Kent Country Day their best players are playing for NCAA schools. However, that is where Colorado and Texas differ Colorado has two NCAA Division I schools (DU & Air Force) and one Division III school (CC). DU has several premier Colorado H.S. players and is a perennial top 10 team and can play with anyone. One of the differences is the high school players in Colorado, Calif., AZ, Utah and Oregon who are good but not superstars jump at the chance to play at CSU, CU, BYU, Oregon etc. while back East they are just beginning to realize it's not an embarrassment to play for a club team. I am sure there are thousands of kids at many colleges that could play out there but their pride won't let them. Hopefully that will continue to change and we will see much more parody everywhere and then there will be no reason for discussions about teams playing weak schedules.

I agree with this 100%. The more advanced a region's high school lacrosse and the closer that region is to varsity options, the more difficult it is for the regions MCLA teams to recruit. Michigan and Ohio, for example, have been sending 20+ kids from each state to D1 schools for years, with another 20+ going to local D2/D3 options like OWU, Denison, Kenyon, Wooster, Mercyhurst, Wheeling Jesuit, etc.

While all states will always send their best 1-5 players to varsity opportunties, I think out west those 5 - 20 range guys are choosing to stay home and play for the local MCLA team...and who can blame them:

Option A) great college experience at an AZ, UCSB, CSU, etc, playing high level lacrosse with guys that you know from growing up.

Option B) paying through the nose to attend a small lib arts D3 school that no ones ever heard of and play varsity lax there with a bunch of guys you don't know.

For midwest guys, at least they don't have the location barrier or the familiarity factor (more midwest people know about schools/teams, and their rosters are filled with other guys from the midwest).

This has been the story for the first 10 years with the MCLA. It will be interesting to see if the next 10 play out differently. More of those 5-20 range guys from non traditional areas are starting to get and consider varsity looks, there are more varsity teams cropping up in their regions, so the talent might get dispersed. However, it seems that HS lax is growing exponentially in those areas as well so perhaps the talent pool will just keep getting bigger, allowing those teams to continuet their success.

[Zamboni_Driver]

So several things all in 1 post -

First, I do think we may be all over analyzing Ty Webb's original post (including myself). I doubt he was trying to make some comparative statement of the quality of high school lacrosse in Cal and Colorado as compared to NY, Mass, Texas, Florida, etc, through a comparison of college teams residing in these states, reaching the MCLA tournament. My head hurts just trying to connect such an interpretation of his post. Maybe Ty would like to comment more?

Now since the issue of the location vs distribution of talented players between NCAA and MCLA was brought up. I think this statement is completely true, and I've seen this for years.

I am sure there are thousands of kids at many colleges that could play out there but their pride won't let them. Hopefully that will continue to change and we will see much more parody everywhere and then there will be no reason for discussions about teams playing weak schedules.

But there is also another side to think about. At the past coaches conference I was talking to a two college coaches who are friends of mine and asked them about getting talent from the MCLA or from Cal/Colorado high schools. They both coach teams flirting with the top 20; 1 in D1 and the other in D3. They told me that they've tried to recruit out of Cal and Colorado and basically unless it was Virginia/Hopkins/Duke, etc calling, the players from these areas would not come east. They suggested that these players also had an ego issue in that they didn't want to be a "small fish in a big pond", but rather go be studs in the MCLA.

Now it didn't sound like either of these college coaches had tried in a few years, so maybe there is a new mentality on both the college coaches and the players.

There will be some varsity coaches in Dallas watching games. Especially the Div A final 4. Smart recruiting for a few kids that may have slipped through the cracks. I think we'll see that our league will become another outlet for recruiting.

[sohotrightnow]

But there is also another side to think about. At the past coaches conference I was talking to a two college coaches who are friends of mine and asked them about getting talent from the MCLA or from Cal/Colorado high schools. They both coach teams flirting with the top 20; 1 in D1 and the other in D3. They told me that they've tried to recruit out of Cal and Colorado and basically unless it was Virginia/Hopkins/Duke, etc calling, the players from these areas would not come east. They suggested that these players also had an ego issue in that they didn't want to be a "small fish in a big pond", but rather go be studs in the MCLA.

Now it didn't sound like either of these college coaches had tried in a few years, so maybe there is a new mentality on both the college coaches and the players.

Well, that is exactly the issue. Why would some kid from California, who is a very good player, i.e. could play high-level D3 ball, perhaps D1, want to play in the middle of nowhere? I mean, no offense, but Nazareth isn't on my list of places to visit on Earth.

I don't think it's an issue of being a "small fish in a big pond," it's an issue of "I am in Santa Barbara, one of the most beautiful places on Earth, the women are gorgeous, the weather is amazing, the social life is incredible, the education is great, I know a handful of my teammates already from high school, the coaching is top-notch, and there will be just as many fans at my game as there would be at a D3 game." Now, why would any kid who is from California want to leave that to play back east at a smaller school where their lacrosse playing ability will improve no doubt, but the rest of their college experience will be miserable because the weather is garbage and you won't know anybody. I mean, it's a no-brainer to me.

[MidwestLaxer]

I hardly think anyone would argue that the Big Ten was the best league in college football this season yet Ohio State was right there. Much like in our MCLA it is because Ohio State is a great program that is also a member of a strong and organized league.

I couldn't agree more. The WCLL, and RMLC are more organized from top to bottom and that only helps them. After watching the CCLA tourney this weekend you could obviously see 3 different levels there.

Level 1 - Michigan
Level 2 (not quite there) - Michigan State
Level 3 - The rest

When a team like Michigan is scheduling their season they have to fill certain slots with games from teams that just aren't as organized as others. The RMLC, on the other hand, features CSU vs CU in the semis. That can only help CSU and CU. No offense to Central Michigan but playing them does not help Michigan prepare for the tourney. You could even make an argument that the teams on the outside looking in are hurt by it from conferences like the CCLA. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in some cases being in a geographic region that "requires" you to participate against schools that aren't as organized or talented seems to have a negative effect on your team.

[bbandlax]

I agree with this 100%. The more advanced a region's high school lacrosse and the closer that region is to varsity options, the more difficult it is for the regions MCLA teams to recruit. Michigan and Ohio, for example, have been sending 20+ kids from each state to D1 schools for years, with another 20+ going to local D2/D3 options like OWU, Denison, Kenyon, Wooster, Mercyhurst, Wheeling Jesuit, etc.

I don't think you have your facts quite straight. Michigan and Ohio St. definitely have quality HS lax, but your saying they each send 20+ to DI schools every year. lets see thats 40+ each year, over the last 4 years... that mean there are 160+ kids in DI this season from Michigan and Ohio St. In the top forty teams there will not be more than 60 players from Ohio or Mich (1 or 2 per team on average). Thats more like 10 from each state per year. There are plenty of kids out there in the midwest to recruit from.

Players are not the limiting factor. The limiting factors are first Coaching and second organization. With those two factors in place even schools like BYU, Sonoma, UCSB, and CSU (all are located in relatively isolated lacrosse areas) can produce quality teams year in and year out.

[MidwestLaxer]

2007 Michigan D1 recruits:
20 1 Shannon, Stu Beverly Hills MI Detroit Country Day MI Midfield E Georgetown
369 1 Chires, Mike Bloomfield Hills MI Detroit Country Day MI Defense E North Carolina
367 1 Palmer, Tim Birmingham MI Birmingham-Seaholm MI Midfield R Princeton
2362 1 Marmul, Jake Livonia MI Detroit Catholic MI Midfield S Notre Dame
DII
1333 2 Gustafson, Zach Brighton MI Brighton MI Attack R Bentley
DIII
206 3 Ruark, Jared Canton MI Plymouth MI Attack R Kenyon
429 3 MacEachern, Matt Troy MI Troy MI Defense R Nazareth
737 3 Zoroya, Nick Novi MI Novi MI Midfield/FO R Oberlin
788 3 Lindstrom, Eric Lansing MI Waverly MI Goalie R Adrian
827 3 Shermetaro, Tom Bloomfield Hills MI Orchard Lake St. Mary's MI Defense/LSM R Tri-State
874 3 Ayre, Steve Britton MI Tecumseh MI Attack R Adrian
1041 3 Ralko, Joey Grosse Pointe Woods MI Groose Pointe North MI Defense R Adrian
1154 3 O'Meara, Robert East Lansing MI East Lansing/Michigan State MI Defense TR Adrian
1339 3 Neerken, Ian Belmont MI Rockford MI Midfield R Tri-State
1367 3 Harris, Kyle Ypsilanti MI Ypsilanti-Lincoln MI Attack/Midfield R Tri-State
1385 3 Huver, Joshua Grand Rapids MI Catholic Central MI Defense R Greensboro
1461 3 Churchwell, Matt macomb MI PA L'Anse Creuse-North MI Goalie R Marywood
1823 3 Halip, Matt Bloomfield Hills MI Brother Rice MI Midfield R Guilford
2040 3 Blair, Dan Clinton Twp. MI De La Salle MI Midfield R Mount St. Joseph
2126 3 Coretti, Joey East Grand Rapids MI East Grand Rapids MI R Roanoke
2185 3 Tuma, Justin Bloomfield Hills MI Lahser MI Attack/Midfield R Roanoke
2232 3 Greiner, Brian Grosse Pointe Farms MI Grosse Pointe South MI Midfield R Rensselaer
2352 3 Namenye, A.J. Kalamazoo MI Kalamazoo Unified MI Defense R Tri-State
2392 3 Osipoff, Kyle East Grand Rapids MI East Grand Rapids MI Defense R Wittenberg

Ohio DI:
42 1 Bowdy, Jordan Dublin OH Dublin Coffman OH Attack E Delaware
43 1 Schmidt, Max Columbus OH Upper Arlington OH Defense E Maryland
44 1 Brelus, John Worthington OH Worthington Kilbourne OH Defense E Penn State
123 1 Ruhl, Scott Dublin OH Dublin Jerome OH Midfield E Towson
344 1 Moore, Trevor Port Coquitlam BC Western Reserve Academy OH Attack E Robert Morris
378 1 Brown, Patrick Worthington OH Worthington Kilbourne OH Midfield S Mount St. Mary's
413 1 Tarr, Nate Worthington OH Thomas Worthington OH Attack/Midfield E Butler
447 1 Lathrop, Scott Upper Arlington OH Upper Arlington OH Midfield E Ohio State
476 1 Powell, T.J. Columbus OH Upper Arlington OH LSM E Butler
477 1 Devilbiss, Grant Columbus OH Upper Arlington OH Attack E Butler
500 1 Novosel, Matthew Hudson OH Hudson OH Defense/LSM E Albany
654 1 Soeder, Drew Hudson OH Hudson OH Defense E Butler
677 1 Lee, Keith Hudson OH Western Reserve Academy OH Midfield E Robert Morris
837 1 Hunter, Grant Cincinnati OH Lakota West OH Defense E Robert Morris
848 1 Simonetti, Steven Dublin OH Dublin Jerome OH Defense R Denver
1251 1 Bowman, Jarred Cincinnati OH Archbishop Moeller OH Midfield E Ohio State

DII
229 2 Orr, Patrick North Canton OH Hoover OH Midfield E Pfeiffer
599 2 Zwick, Brian Columbus OH Dublin Scioto OH Midfield R Limestone
924 2 Kasper, Evan Kent OH Kent Roosevelt OH Defense/LSM R Wheeling Jesuit
1223 2 Bruck, Daniel Powell OH Olentangy Liberty OH Attack R Limestone
1464 2 Vogel, Scott Powell OH Olentangy-Liberty OH Goalie R Assumption
1801 2 Kapps, Aaron Columbus OH Dublin Scioto OH Defense/LSM S Queens
1880 2 Alexander, Malik Kent OH Kent Roosevelt OH LSM R Pfeiffer

DIII - too many to list.

[univduke21]

Is it just me or did I count 4 DI players from Michigan? I couldn't find the other hiding 16.

[John Paul]

Players are not the limiting factor. The limiting factors are first Coaching and second organization. With those two factors in place even schools like BYU, Sonoma, UCSB, and CSU (all are located in relatively isolated lacrosse areas) can produce quality teams year in and year out.

Scotty,

I think you just called me a bad coach who is poorly organized. After all I've done for you, too... You are off my Christmas list.

Shep was a little off on his numbers, but I think his point was that Michigan and Ohio have been sending large numbers of kids to NCAA programs at all levels for a long time (keeping in mind that the laxpower list is not all the ones who are going, either). There are very well established pipelines from the top programs here. We face the same issues everyone else does, but it's been going on longer. The one difference is there is not as much of a cultural divide between us and the East as there is between the West and the East. A lot of Midwest kids going East don't consider it a long distance away from home (it's not very far), and they are not leaving the mountains or the beach. That doesn't make or break any of us, but it's a factor.

In our case here at Michigan our biggest limiting factor is admissions - period. Our issues do not hinge as much on a lack of support from the local lacrosse community. We recruit and draw much more nationally than most MCLA teams simply because the school draws nationally, so we don't depend on Michigan to send us as many good players as much as our peers in the MCLA depend on their states (except for BYU, which is in a fairly unique situation because of its church affiliation). Michigan is turning down applicants who would have been Ivy admits a few years ago (and, in turn, the Ivys are turning down validictorians). That shrinks the available pool substantially. The rest of the MCLA, and many D3 programs for that matter, are sprinkled with players who applied here and didn't get in. The flip-side to that is we draw interest from a much larger talent pool than most MCLA teams to begin with. Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt, Cal-Berkeley and Stanford (at a whole different level) deal with the same issues.

For us, and for any team in the MCLA that wants to compete, it just means more work to provide the structure and support to play at a high level, or more work to actively recruit, or a variety of other things we do to give ourselves a shot. Whatever we can do overcome the bad coaching and poor organization...

[shep]

We all know those laxpower lists are not inclusive, there's a lot of kids from every state who's college plans are not included on those lists (late commits, walk ons, coaches/players never sent their info to laxpower, etc). I think the fact that there's 20+ varsity kids listed (with all the non-listed kids adding to that) from both OH and MI proves my point. Obviously the D1/D2/D3 mix is going to change somewhat from year to year.

My point was, there's a big group of good players coming out of all of the "non-traditional" states, but most of these kids in places like MI and OH go play varsity. The same level of kids out west have been playing MCLA. I don't think anyone will argue this.

I'm interested to see if going forward this has an impact on the MCLA, as now it seems like a higher % of the western HS talent is choosing to play varsity vs. MCLA. On the other hand, the talent pool in those states is growing like crazy as well, perhaps faster than in places like MI and OH. So, it might not make any difference at all. Fun to watch and talk about either way.

[John Paul]

It is an interesting case study if someone wants to put together stats sometime. Laxpower lists 15 D1 recruits from Michigan last year out of 73 programs that year. There were 157 programs listed in California last year and I count 25 D1 recruits. Not a very scientific sample, but if anything it shows California is catching up in percentage of kids leaving for D1.

Probably a more valid accounting would come from D3 recruits as that's the general talent level we should be comparing to.

Regardless, there are a ton of other factors that are harder to account for: including high school level of play, cost, culture, admissions, number of recruiting opportunities, draw of the school academically and athletically, strength of the program, etc.

[Beta]

Is it just me or did I count 4 DI players from Michigan? I couldn't find the other hiding 16.

He was saying both states combined.

Michigan and Ohio, for example, have been sending 20+ kids from each state to D1 schools for years

4 from Michigan, 16 from Ohio.

[More Cowbell]

Michigan and Ohio, for example, have been sending 20+ kids from each state to D1 schools for years

[bbandlax]

Scotty,
I think you just called me a bad coach who is poorly organized. After all I've done for you, too... You are off my Christmas list. :

JP, in Perth I was surprised you were able to have matching shoes and your hair combed on most days. You only forgot to put your pants on once the whole time.

Actually Michigan is the class of the MCLA in organization and coaching (well at least tied in the second category ). However my point is that in most cases every school in this league has the potential to be like CSU. Look at Duluth, Utah, etc... Once there is stability in the coaching area, and a concerted, sustained effort is made at building bridges within the school good things usually happen. Heck, CSU has very little school support, but having a committed competent coach has helped make them the most dominate team in the last 5 years.

For what it is worth here is the current list of Mich and Ohio players on the rosters of the top 40 (approx) DI programs. It is a very impressive list, if not quite the numbers noted by shep.

Cornel-0
Duke-0
UVA-1(Oh)
Georgetown-2 (2 Oh)
JHU-0
Maryland-2(2 Oh)
Princeton-0
Navy-1(Mich)
UNC-0
Albany-0
Notre Dame-3(2 Oh, 1 Mich)
Loyola-2(1 Oh, 1 Mich)
UMBC-1(Oh)
Towson-0
Delaware-1(Oh)
Colgate-3(2 Oh, 1 Mich)
Drexel-0
Rutgers-0
Ohio St.-9(Oh=8, Mich=1)
Bucknell-3(1 Oh, 2 Mich)
Syracuse 4(1 Oh, 3 Mich)
Dartmouth-2 (2 OH)
Yale-0
Penn-3(1 Oh, 2 Mich)
Harvard-2(2 Mich)
Penn St.-3 (3 Mich)
Denver-4 (3 Oh, 1 Mich)
UMass-2(1 Oh, 1 Mich)
Army-2 (2 Mich)
Fairfield-0
Brown-2 (2 Oh)
Mt Saint Mary’s-1(Oh)
Binghamton-0
Stoney Brook-0
Hofstra-0
Air Force-4(3 Oh, 1 Mich)
Lehigh-2(2 Oh)
Hobart-1 (Oh)
Holy Cross-0
St Johns-0

Top 20=28 (21=Oh 7=Mich)
next 20=30 (17=Oh, 13=Mich)